need some information please

located - what may be the problem, but webtv can't access it and download the information. that is where i need help.
here's the facts.
94 CVPI - fuel pump does not run but will run, if 12v is applied from
outside source. will start on ether but only for about 1/2 to one second. something is shutting off the ignition even if ether is sprayed heavy. same time frame 1/2 to one second.
found out it is a common problem on the 92 to 98 CV where the EEC has to see the engine turning over before closing relay to activate the fuel pump. it also states that the problem usually is in the Q103 connector on page 3 & 4 if you view the download.
address is - www.smpcorp.com/download/view/8517_4Q.PDF
it definitely is behaving like an open or bad ground - just don't know where - yet.
if someone can tell me where Q103 is, i can go from there.
thanks,
~ curtis
knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional "Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so." http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
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Having trouble understanding what you are saying.... When you turn the key to run, the fuel pump will run for about 1.5 secons to charge the fuel rail. After that, it needs rpm signal to run the pump. Throw the ether away, it is clouding your diagnosis. If something is "shutting off" the ignition, perhaps you should be looking at the ignition system. Have you scanned for codes?
Additionally. Fords system has C??? for connector, S??? for splice and G??? for ground.... not a Q in the bunch.
Time to get back to basics.... scan for On Demand Codes... check fuel pressure while cranking WITH A GAUGE.. Check for spark while cranking.... If you don't do things the way they should be done, you can cost yourself needlessly.
BTW, your link comes up "page cannot be found"....

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hi jim - thanks for the reply. when you turn the key to the ON position - the dash gauges will go to their position as they should and the usual dash lights come on. the fuel pump will not come on at all - hence no fuel pressure. the engine will spin at normal starter speed, but there is no hint that it wants to start - hence the ether, to see i was getting spark. i have a x-ray unit, but when i plugged it in, said that it can not establish communications. the check engine light does come on when you turn the key on. the fuel pump relay is good. all fuses i've found are good and nothing seems to be visually wrong in symptoms other than clock and radio don't come on.
i can hot wire the fuel pump and it does run and charge the fuel lines, it's missing the signal to the relay.
what is throwing me off is how this is not getting any signals. it's too easy to say module and go chasing my tail, which is why i'm wondering if there is a open ground on a circuit. also, since it probably was a service unit, a lot of vibration and road salt maybe.
i've seen this on tv circuits where they are using one circuit to develop a voltage drop and then use that voltage drop as a source for something else. when the voltage drop didn't happen, then the unit would give off different symptoms, none of which was that it was missing the voltage drop.
that is where my logic is going to the open ground, but i may be barking up a wrong tree.
i'm willing to learn - just walk me through it.
~ curtis
knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional "Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so." http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
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On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 12:20:07 -0500, PALMER snipped-for-privacy@webtv.net (c palmer) wrote:

check for spark check for crank signal does it have a tach?
hurc ast
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does not have a tach.
getting crank signal
getting spark that runs engine for about one second. when the engine runs, hits on all cylinders, no misses, and runs strong, then shuts off.
knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional "Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so." http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
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Are you hot wiring the pump at the relay socket???? Or atr anothe place.... Also, if you hot wire the pump does the motor run?
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hi jim - i hot wired the fuel pump using the power coming off of the tail lights inside the trunk. i jumped it at the emer. shut off switch and also proved that the switch is good. the fuel pump does run and you can hear it. there is pressure at the engine also.
but when you try to start the engine, it just spins and has no response to the fuel. that is why i thought i would try the ether and got the limited response. at least i know that there is a short time that the coil packs are getting power but something is shutting them down. it behaves like something is allowing the electrical to power it for the time it takes to start, then a module will verify that the engine is running and kept the power on.
but if that is the case, then, why isn't the fuel power not powering up also?
~ curtis
knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional "Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so." http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
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On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 02:49:00 -0500, PALMER snipped-for-privacy@webtv.net (c palmer) wrote:

curt how do ya know the pcm sees the crank signal from crank sensor ?
hurc ast
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how do ya know the pcm sees the crank signal from crank sensor ? hurc ast
============= if the crankshaft sensor was not putting out a signal, then the engine would not know when to fire the plug at the proper time and at a result, would not fire at all, thinking that the crankshaft is not rotating, but standing still
the engine will run for that one second of duration and it fires evenly on all cylinders indicating that the module is getting the proper pulses at the right time in order to generate the trigger voltage for the coil packs to fire the plug at the right time.
~ curtis
knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional "Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so." http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
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Using the ether wont prove that the spark is shutting down.... I'm not familiar with your scan tool and the "no communication" thing is bothering me a little.
I'd recommend getting right back to basics.... check for spark using a proper spark tester.... the ones that look ike a spark plug are iffy but the kind that adjust with a thumb screw are good. If you have spark, look at fuel injector pulse.. You can back probe with a test light - these are ground side switched so the light should remain bright on one side and flash when the motor is cranking on the other..
I have to wonder if no communication is part of the equation or just a red herring.

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hi jim - i'm using the autoxray 4000 from www.auto-xray.com
the no communication thing is bothering me too because it is suppose to be able to "talk" to the car's modules and can't. that was another reason that sent me toward an open on the ground circuit, because if the autoxray unit would talk to anything, it would come up with something on the display. i've used the unit on another vehicle to verify that the autoxray unit was working correctly and it is. put it back on the C.V. again and it pops up with no communication again.
i've got the adjustable spark tester as you described and it runs a strong spark, then cuts off after the one second.
i'm a little weak on the brain box part. can you help me out here? if you get a check engine light on the dash, which is what others have ask me. is this proof that the computer is getting power?
you're right about going back to the basics. my logic is to break the circuits in half to see if the voltage/pulse is there, and have it take me to the 1/2 that's not working. but when the car doesn't want to co-operate, makes it a little tougher. the good news - if one wants to call it that, is since it's dead, once i find the problem, then the car should come back to life, unless i hit a second wave of problems at that point.
~ curtis
knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional "Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so." http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
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Isn't there a "Collision" switch that kills the fuel pump on some cars to prevent pumping fuel in the event of a collision. If this vehicle is so equipped find out how to reset it and try this also.

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hi victor - the switch you speak of is mounted on the left rear of the trunk and has been verified as a good switch and is in it's normally closed position.
thanks for the input.
~ curtis
knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional "Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so." http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
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On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 12:05:52 -0500, PALMER snipped-for-privacy@webtv.net (c palmer) wrote:

does it start for 1 second ( like you said) every time when pump is jumped ?
hurc ast
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i used ether in order to what i call - force logic on the engine. in other words - i know it has fuel. but the joker seems to be after that one second of running, it shuts down just like the key is turned off - even with ether being sprayed into the intake and it doesn't make any difference. also noted, was the engine doesn't shudder or shake likes it is just about dry on fuel, then quits running. it shuts down at a particular time frame and does so each time regardless of the amount of fuel in the intake.
as to the fuel pump being hot wired to run, it doesn't make any difference. without the ether, the engine just cranks as if it is not getting spark or fuel even with sound of fuel pump working. forcing logic on the engine with ether, the engine roared to life but dies shortly afterwards. the exhaust doesn't smell like it is rich in gas. at least, i was able to get a little more information by spraying the intake.
knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional "Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so." http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
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Does that thing have an anti-theft system? It sure sounds like what happens when you use a key without the right security chip. Bob

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or an aftermarket remote starter with an ignition interrupter"Bob"

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