Re: R.I.P. General Motors (1931-2006)

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On Sat, 1 Apr 2006 16:59:13 -0500, "Mike Hunter"


OK, add all the Matrix, Celica, Prius, Corolla,etc to the Toyota list, and the civic and all it's variants to Honda, and how does it compare?

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Are you that slow? ALL Toyotas Matrix, Celica, Prius, Corolla, etc have the Toyota name on car. "GM" does not appear on their cars, they have the division name on the car. Ever hear of a GM Malibu or a GM LeSabre?
mike hunt
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mike, It's possible that GM is sells more cars than any other company. Even if this is true, it's only because they make so many types of cars and trucks. A better carparison would be to compare each GM model to similar models made by Honda and Toyota
For example--compare the 4 door Civic to a 4 door GM car that is almost identical to the 4 door Civic. Be honest--do you think the GM car is superior to the Civic? Also, if you compare the sales figures--do you think the GM car or the Civic would win that contest?
Jason
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My response was to the statement that Toyota and Honda makes better cars. What I said was that was not reflected in the sales numbers, since GM sells more cars than Toyota and Honda. GM still sells more cars than anybody. Many people believe what they see in ads. Toyota is advertising they are the number one car brand, that is true but Chevrolet is the number one BRAND name, that includes cars and trucks since American have been buying more trucks than cars for the past five years. Ford is the number two BRAND name. Toyotas growth over the past five years, like every other manufacture, has been in trucks and SUVs sales in Toyota and Lexus and the addition of Scion. Camry sales were actually down in 2005.
I'm simply trying to set the record straight. Toyota is advertising they have been the number one car in the US, that is true but GM, Ford and Chrysler have individual vehicles that sell in far greater numbers. When it come to who sells what in the US GM is number one, Ford number two, Chrysler number three and Toyota and Honda a distant fourth and fifth. Toyota Motor (Sales) Company sold only around 11% of the 16,500,000 vehicles sold in the US in 2005. Honda less than 8% The ultimate indicator of who makes the best, among its pears in any segment, is the total annual sales period.
mike hunt
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On Sun, 2 Apr 2006 20:47:02 -0400, "Mike Hunter"

DC sold         2,304,833 vehicles in 2005 Toyota sold    2,260,296 vehicles in 2005
Doesn't look like a "distant" fourth to me.
Not that it matters. Honda is making lots of money. Toyota is poised to take over as the biggest vehicle maker in the world. DC, well that's really a German company now so it is hard to see why it is even considered part of the Big 3. It will be even harder when Toyota passes it in sales next year.
For now, GM and Ford are losing money on every car they sell but making it up on volume. Five years from now you may barely recognize them.
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The US market in 2005 was 16,500,000 and Chrysler had 2% more of the market than Toyota according to the Commerce Department figures.
Perhaps you are wasting you time hanging out in the NGs, you should by buying lottery tickets and stocks or better yet get into the commodities market with all of your insight. LOL
mike hunt
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On Mon, 3 Apr 2006 10:01:47 -0400, "Mike Hunter"

Here is my source. Where is yours?
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/060104/auto_sales_table.html?.v=2
DC sold about 2% more cars than Toyota last year (2,304,833 vs 2,260,296) but their market share was virtually identical.

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wrote:

You got 'em Mike. And that's why GM and Ford and DC are on easy street and Rick Wagoner sleeps like a baby each night.
Oh wait, they are supposed to be in the business of making money, not just pushing iron out the door with little or no profit (because they need to bribe their customers so much to buy almost anything they make). Ah, a minor point.
Nevertheless, as you rightly point out, for argument sake the only thing that really matters is just total vehicle sales numbers which clearly define which are the best brands and vehicles.
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On Sun, 9 Apr 2006 21:19:08 -0400, "Mike Hunter"

If you are going to call me a liar, you might at least make a feeble attempt to check my facts. Even a polite request for a reference would save you the embarrassment of my (once again) proving that you are blowing smoke.
http://72.14.203.104/search?q che:rAtnUeuBs3oJ:www.autoweek.com/news.cms%3FnewsId%3D103587
Big 3 fleet sales hid October retail collapse, helped to keep domestics afloat MARY CONNELLY | Automotive News Posted Date: 11/15/05
"GM's fleet sales generated 33.5 percent of its total October volume, up from 25.8 percent for the period a year earlier. Ford Motor's fleets also accounted for 33 percent of October sales, up from 24 percent a year earlier."
http://www.ecommercetimes.com/story/49139.html
Honda, Toyota Sales Up; GM, Ford Sales Slide
By Dee-Ann Durbin AP 03/02/06 7:38 AM PT
"Paul Ballew, GM's executive director of market and industry analysis, said GM was pleased with its performance because it relied less heavily on incentives and fleet sales than in the past. Ballew said GM's incentive spending was down US$1,000 per vehicle from last February, while sales to corporate and government fleets fell to 25 percent of overall sales, down from 30 percent a year ago."
http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/Auto_News/Feb_Sales_Chrysler_Japanese_Strong.S175.A10097.html
Feb. Sales: Chrysler, Japanese Strong GM and Ford slip slightly as sales stay flat. by Joseph Szczesny              (2006-03-06)
"Ford, meanwhile, was forced to use fleet sales to prop up their February sales totals. GM and Ford also disclosed plans for modest cuts in production during the second quarter. George Pipas, Ford's sales analyst, said Wednesday fleet sales accounted for more than 40 percent of the company's sales total for February, surprising analysts monitoring the company's monthly sales call."
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If you will take the time to actually read what you post you would realize when you said 25% of GM car sales are fleet purchases, you were incorrect. Since you obviously knew what you posted was not correct, that makes what you posted a lie. I was being kind when I called it a 'story' GM or any other manufacture would love to sell 25% of their cars to ANY one type of buyer. ;)
mike hunt
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http://72.14.203.104/search?q che:rAtnUeuBs3oJ:www.autoweek.com/news.cms%3FnewsId%3D103587
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Top-posting moron and proven liar Mike Hunter wrote:

That's funny, coming from "Mike Hunt" the bald-faced liar.

It appears to me that his evidence proves his claim. Stop being a stupid, top-posting asshole and show EXACTLY where he is wrong instead of just ranting-away at the top.

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That's OK dizzy AKA Moron, Idiot, Stupid, Troll etc we did not expect you to find the discrepancy between what he posted and the actual facts. LOL
mike hunt
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wrote: (...)

Total profit = profit per car X volume. If a company is losing money on each car it sells, it will lose even more if it sells more vehicles.
Your statement doesn't make sense.
Jeff
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What did you expect from one of the loonies that want to see so many American worker loose their jobs? Especially the loonies that think the vehicles buy are better, yet millions more Americans buy the GM vehicles they obviously believe are better. Every buyer is free to spend their money wherever they choose and far more Americans choose GM, Ford and Chrysler over any import.
mike hunt
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mike, Be honest, what are the three best selling cars in America? The Toyota Camry or the Honda Accord is usually number 1--almost every year. The reason that GM cars sell so well in America is because of their low prices and special discounts. Jason
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All manufactures offer rebates and other incentives, those offered by Toyota currently on 2006 models, are higher than on some similar GM and Ford models. You are saying the Camry is the number one selling car therefore more buyers must think it is the best buy for their money, in that respect you are correct. You reference is to individual brand names, GM sells more cars then Toyota but with different brand names, therefore they must be better in the minds of those that buy them.
Why it OK to say Toyota and Honda have the best cars because they sell more but not to say GM, Ford and Chrysler are the better because they sell more in total than Toyota or Honda? Conversely, using that logic, the Civic is the best small car to most buyers, since they buy more of them. The Camry is the best mid size car, to most buyers, since they buy more of them. Buick sells the most full size cars so they must be the best. The Escape is the best small SUV, to most buyers, since they buy more of them. The Explorer has been the best mid size SUV, to most buyers, since they buy more of them. The Chevy Suburban is the best large SUV, to most buyers, since they buy more of them. Dodge must sell the best full size van for most buyers, since they buy more of them. The Ford Econoline must be the best full size van, to most buyers, since they buy more of them. The Ford F Series is the best line of light truck, to most buyers, since they buy more of them. The Ford F150 is the best individual truck, to most buyers, since they buy more of them, more than any single vehicle on the market today and has been for nearly 30 years. The best selling car, the Camry does not even sell at half the rate of the F150.
mike hunt
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Mike, You made some great points. One of the main reasons that GM sells so many cars in America is related to the price of many of the models. For example, if a person planned to buy a new car and only made about $25,000 per year--that person would probably buy a GM Metro LSI instead of a Honda Civic. However, that same person would probably have preferred to buy the Honda Civic. It's for these same reasons that Walmart is number 1 in their field. Jason
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I have said all along that import buyer are paying 20% to 30% more to drive home the vehicles they choose. I think it is foolish to pay that much more for any vehicle that one thinks may be majority better when there are so many others that are as good or better that can be driven home for less. Apparently more buyer think that way as well since GM, Ford and Chrysler sell more vehicles in the US than any import. When I was in retail the last question asked by the buyer before signing on the dotted line was, "How much is my monthly payment?' ;)
mike hunt
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On Thu, 6 Apr 2006 13:29:04 -0400, "Mike Hunter"

From the Chicago Tribune (4/2/06 Sect 12, p8) Truck Rebate Guide:
    Pickups Ford F150            $2,500 - 3,500 Ford F series        $2,500 GM Avalanche        $4,000 GM Silverado        $500 - 2,500 Toyota Tundra        $1,500 Honda Ridgeline    $1,000
    Huge SUVs Ford Excursion ('05)    $3,000 Ford Expedition        $5,000 GM Suburban        $5,000 GM Tahoe ('06)        $5,000 GM Tahoe ('07)        Financing Toyota Land Cruiser    None Toyota Sequoia        $2,000 Hummer H2        Financing
    Large SUVs Ford Explorer        $2,000 - 3,000 GM Trailblazer        $1,000    (SS finance only) Toyota Highlander    $600     (hybrid finance only) Toyota 4Runner    $1,000 Honda Pilot        None
    Small SUVs Ford Escape        $2,000 - 3,000    ($0 - 500 hybrid) Ford Freestyle        $1,000 - 1,500 GM Equinox        Financing Honda Element        Financing Honda CRV        None Toyota RAV4        None
Cash rebates always have an alternative financing option of uncertain value.
The Sunday Tribune alternates trucks and cars weekly on its Rebate Guide so I don't have the Car Guide this week. Generally GM and Ford cars have much higher rebates than Toyota and Honda.

Fully 25% of GM vehicles are sold to fleet buyers at prices below even what the dealers pay. The Japanese companies don't offer those discounts because they don't have tons of excess capacity. So, in the minds of a lot of those who buy them, better means it's real cheap and I don't have to drive it.

GM sells a lot of cars because they have to sell a lot or their unit price skyrockets due to their fixed costs. Like everyone else, GM aims for a price and volume that will maximize profit. In GM's case, the best they could do in 2005 was a $8.5B...oops, $10.5B loss. If their cars were really "better" they could charge enough to make a profit.
BTW, if GM had paid absolutely nothing for health care in 2005, they still would have lost over $5B.

And people are willing to pay enough that Honda and Toyota make a good profit.

But GM has to discount them so heavily that they are losing money on them. (Are any Japanese cars classified as "full size?")

But not so good that Ford doesn't have to give a $2,000 to $3,000 rebate on them.

31% fewer in March than a year ago.

Are there any Japanese competitors in this segment? With gas up to $3 again, I think GM and Ford are going to have this niche to themselves for as long as they want it.

Again, no Japanese competitors.

I thought Dodge had the best full size van.

Ford probably makes a profit on these, even with the $3,000 rebate. But with more serious competition form Japan and $3 gas, even that may change.
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wrote:

I believe that the Avalon is classified as a full size car.

I believe that the Toyota Sequoia and Nissan Armada are in the same segment as the Suburban and Expedition.
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