Re: R.I.P. General Motors (1931-2006)

What did you expect from one of the loonies that want to see so many American worker loose their jobs? Especially the loonies that think the vehicles buy are better, yet millions more Americans buy the GM vehicles they obviously believe are better. Every buyer is free to spend their money wherever they choose and far more Americans choose GM, Ford and Chrysler over any import.

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter
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Hey Mike, Toyota owners are not under the "delusion" that their Toyotas will never break down. They are under the accurate impression (usually from personal experience) that their vehicles will break down less to a lot less than any other brand.

Reply to
Charles U' Farley

You got 'em Mike. And that's why GM and Ford and DC are on easy street and Rick Wagoner sleeps like a baby each night.

Oh wait, they are supposed to be in the business of making money, not just pushing iron out the door with little or no profit (because they need to bribe their customers so much to buy almost anything they make). Ah, a minor point.

Nevertheless, as you rightly point out, for argument sake the only thing that really matters is just total vehicle sales numbers which clearly define which are the best brands and vehicles.

Reply to
Charles U' Farley

Please post properly so we can tell who you are replying to.

Reply to
Eugene Nine

I'll try to remember that next time I post, OK?

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

It is still an illusion since it is not true. Look at any survey of the auto indistry. The failure rate is around 2% for ALL manufactues, within the first five years or 75K, which means 98% of all the others among them will not have a failure. EVERY manufacture makes some that are not up to snuff. That is why they all have a warranty even RR. ;)

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

mike, Be honest, what are the three best selling cars in America? The Toyota Camry or the Honda Accord is usually number 1--almost every year. The reason that GM cars sell so well in America is because of their low prices and special discounts. Jason

Reply to
Jason

You're the one who is insane. GM and Ford have laid off workers so they can have them assembled in other countries. They take advantage of the lower cost so they can compensate themselves with bigger bonuses and stock options while laying off blue collar workers.

GM and Ford do sell more than Toyotas. So what? That does not make them better vehicles. McDonalds sells more food than any 5-star restaurants. Does that mean that their food is better? Only lunatics believe so.

Study after study show that Toyotas have better reliability than GM and Ford. Only those with single-digit IQ's deny that.

Reply to
Viperkiller

Apparently more buyers think the vehicles sold by GM, Ford and Chrysler, in the same price range think so, that is why they buy more of them.

Are the folks that are willing to pay $10 for a burger in one of those

5-Star restaurants, as smart a buyer as the guy that buys one from McDonalds for $1? When it comes to vehicles more buyers realize they need not spend so much more for an import that is in the real world no better? LOL

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

All manufactures offer rebates and other incentives, those offered by Toyota currently on 2006 models, are higher than on some similar GM and Ford models. You are saying the Camry is the number one selling car therefore more buyers must think it is the best buy for their money, in that respect you are correct. You reference is to individual brand names, GM sells more cars then Toyota but with different brand names, therefore they must be better in the minds of those that buy them.

Why it OK to say Toyota and Honda have the best cars because they sell more but not to say GM, Ford and Chrysler are the better because they sell more in total than Toyota or Honda? Conversely, using that logic, the Civic is the best small car to most buyers, since they buy more of them. The Camry is the best mid size car, to most buyers, since they buy more of them. Buick sells the most full size cars so they must be the best. The Escape is the best small SUV, to most buyers, since they buy more of them. The Explorer has been the best mid size SUV, to most buyers, since they buy more of them. The Chevy Suburban is the best large SUV, to most buyers, since they buy more of them. Dodge must sell the best full size van for most buyers, since they buy more of them. The Ford Econoline must be the best full size van, to most buyers, since they buy more of them. The Ford F Series is the best line of light truck, to most buyers, since they buy more of them. The Ford F150 is the best individual truck, to most buyers, since they buy more of them, more than any single vehicle on the market today and has been for nearly 30 years. The best selling car, the Camry does not even sell at half the rate of the F150.

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

Mike, You made some great points. One of the main reasons that GM sells so many cars in America is related to the price of many of the models. For example, if a person planned to buy a new car and only made about $25,000 per year--that person would probably buy a GM Metro LSI instead of a Honda Civic. However, that same person would probably have preferred to buy the Honda Civic. It's for these same reasons that Walmart is number 1 in their field. Jason

Reply to
Jason

I have said all along that import buyer are paying 20% to 30% more to drive home the vehicles they choose. I think it is foolish to pay that much more for any vehicle that one thinks may be majority better when there are so many others that are as good or better that can be driven home for less. Apparently more buyer think that way as well since GM, Ford and Chrysler sell more vehicles in the US than any import. When I was in retail the last question asked by the buyer before signing on the dotted line was, "How much is my monthly payment?' ;)

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

From the Chicago Tribune (4/2/06 Sect 12, p8) Truck Rebate Guide:

Pickups Ford F150 $2,500 - 3,500 Ford F series $2,500 GM Avalanche $4,000 GM Silverado $500 - 2,500 Toyota Tundra $1,500 Honda Ridgeline $1,000

Huge SUVs Ford Excursion ('05) $3,000 Ford Expedition $5,000 GM Suburban $5,000 GM Tahoe ('06) $5,000 GM Tahoe ('07) Financing Toyota Land Cruiser None Toyota Sequoia $2,000 Hummer H2 Financing

Large SUVs Ford Explorer $2,000 - 3,000 GM Trailblazer $1,000 (SS finance only) Toyota Highlander $600 (hybrid finance only) Toyota 4Runner $1,000 Honda Pilot None

Small SUVs Ford Escape $2,000 - 3,000 ($0 - 500 hybrid) Ford Freestyle $1,000 - 1,500 GM Equinox Financing Honda Element Financing Honda CRV None Toyota RAV4 None

Cash rebates always have an alternative financing option of uncertain value.

The Sunday Tribune alternates trucks and cars weekly on its Rebate Guide so I don't have the Car Guide this week. Generally GM and Ford cars have much higher rebates than Toyota and Honda.

Fully 25% of GM vehicles are sold to fleet buyers at prices below even what the dealers pay. The Japanese companies don't offer those discounts because they don't have tons of excess capacity. So, in the minds of a lot of those who buy them, better means it's real cheap and I don't have to drive it.

GM sells a lot of cars because they have to sell a lot or their unit price skyrockets due to their fixed costs. Like everyone else, GM aims for a price and volume that will maximize profit. In GM's case, the best they could do in 2005 was a $8.5B...oops, $10.5B loss. If their cars were really "better" they could charge enough to make a profit.

BTW, if GM had paid absolutely nothing for health care in 2005, they still would have lost over $5B.

And people are willing to pay enough that Honda and Toyota make a good profit.

But GM has to discount them so heavily that they are losing money on them. (Are any Japanese cars classified as "full size?")

But not so good that Ford doesn't have to give a $2,000 to $3,000 rebate on them.

31% fewer in March than a year ago.

Are there any Japanese competitors in this segment? With gas up to $3 again, I think GM and Ford are going to have this niche to themselves for as long as they want it.

Again, no Japanese competitors.

I thought Dodge had the best full size van.

Ford probably makes a profit on these, even with the $3,000 rebate. But with more serious competition form Japan and $3 gas, even that may change.

Reply to
Gordon McGrew

You don't go to many 5-star restaurants, do you Mikey?

Is the guy eating at the 5-star restaurant smarter than the guy eating at McDonalds? Well, on the average he is probably earning five to ten times as much so I would be inclined to say yes.

Reply to
Gordon McGrew

I believe that the Avalon is classified as a full size car.

I believe that the Toyota Sequoia and Nissan Armada are in the same segment as the Suburban and Expedition.

Reply to
Ray O

Not so, you obviously know little about how corporate fleets operate, if that is what you believe. Corporate fleets, generally, keep their vehicles longer than any other new vehicle buyer and average more mileage as well. Because of federal tax deprecation laws they run the vehicles, that are just one more tool used in their business, for five years or 300K WOF.

Fleet discounts are offered by all manufactures, domestic and import. It currently is around $600 per vehicle, if one buys at least five, for all manufactures hardly below cost. GM nor any other manufacture can sell directly to fleets or any other buyer. ALL sales are through the franchised dealers. ALL dealers can sell to fleets and they all are eligible to sell at the same discount. Besides what difference does it make who buys the vehicles?

Imports would love to capture more of the fleet business, but the only ones doing so in any great numbers are the Koreans. Courier car fleets who easily run their cars up to 100K annually, buy a lots of imports. They run Civics, Corollas, Neons, Cobolts, Focus', VWs and Hyundais etc. Courier fleets buy from many manufactures because not one, or even a combination of them, can provide the numbers of vehicles the courier companies need. Most every rental car company offers imports as well but rental car companies, unlike fleets, sell off the cars in a year or less.. Corporate fleets prefer Fords vehicles, by far, over any of the GM or import vehicles in any event.

No matter how you spin it more buyers still choose GM, Ford and Chrysler over any import. If you prefer to spend 20% to 30% more to buy an import you are free to do so, its your money

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

If you think the Japanese are the only ones offering vehicles that get good mileage, you have not looked at the EPA Fuel Economy Guide CAFE figures. If you think gas mileage alone is the determining factor as to what buyers buy your thinking is faulty. The Camry outsells the Corolla, which get the better gas mileage? Eight out of ten Camrys sold have only a 4cy engine. The Camry outsells the Ford Fusion, which 4 cy get the better fuel mileage? The Pruis gets better mileage than the Corolla, which sells better? Do you think a person that spends 50K or 70K to buy any vehicle cares about the price of gasoline? The only people that have a problem affording gas, at a price over $3, are they people that can only afford econoboxes. ;)

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

I live in 5-star restaurants, but I don't order burgers. That was not the question I asked. In answer to your question, he may be smarter but he is hardly a smarter BUYER if he goes to a 5-star restaurant just to buy a burger. ;)

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

Also--the guy might be attempting to impress a customer (eg real estate salesman) by taking the customer to a 5-star restaurant.

Reply to
Jason

A better statement would be: On average, Imports have better reliability than GM and Ford. Some GMs and Fords do better than the imports on particular applications. I don't see many import police cars. Most are Ford Crown Vics and Chevys. Corporate fleet managers learn which cars work well for their fleets and buy those. And some imports have big reliability problems. Most don't.

Jeff

Reply to
Jeff

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