Re: TOYOTA SEZ IT HAS [another] FIX FOR PEDAL ... DO YOU BELIEVE IT?

On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 15:48:16 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Toyota denies all problems that have potential widespread repair cost or potential human liability concerns until they become so flagrant and the uproar so great that they can no longer deny them.
The did it with sludge problem, denying it was their responsibility and claiming that it would not happen if the owner changed oil regularly. Then enough documented cases of where the owner HAD changed the oil regularly and HAD documentation and proved that it still happens under proper maintenance. Even so, despite having had it PROVED that the problem was NOT directly tied to incorrect oil change frequency, Toyota still refused to pay for the extraordinary repairs to any car where the owner could not produce detailed documentation of changes. Nice policy.
Next we had the truck frame problem... more denials, until the uproar became deafening. Now we have the accelerator problem, very wide spread, and Toyota again denies any responsibility (for years) until every excuse they have come up with is proven wrong and the problem grows to most all their car lines.
I had my own experience with Toyota's policy of "deny everything" back in the mid 80's. My $300 warranty claim was denied by corporate and I quickly worked my way to the regional director. He refused to discuss the specific issue, but instead repeatedly read me a letter from the corporate lawyers denying responsibility. The issue was not the validity of my $300 warranty claim, it was the fact that it exposed Toyota to admitting to improper design in an area where loss of life was a serious possibility.

This isn's about the "big three". We all know they suck. This is about Toyota and their real colors showing, again and again. "We build a great product - unless there's a design defect that will cost us big - then you are on your own, sucker".
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Well, I've had different experience with Toyota than you have - from the other side, albeit quite a few years ago.
I was a dealer service manager. Warranty on Toyotas was a WHOLE LOT EASIER than it was on American stuff at that time.
As service manager I had a lot of "discression" - If it was a problem I fixed it and fought with Toyota Canada if I had to. I can't remember ever losing the arguement.
There WAS a cultural thing - no "whitey"- particularly a simple mechanic - could ever tell a Jap - particularly an engineer - how to fix something. I made a lot of suggestions - and showed how I had fixed certain problems - and eventually a little Jap engineer would come up with a fix for the problem - which very often was the fix I had come up with - but now it was the Jap Engineer's fix.

And I dissagree there too. At least to a point.
When a problem shows up and is proven, they come up with a fix - and they fix it. If under warranty, at their expense. If not, it depends what the problem is and what the fix is - not what it is going to cost them. Some of the more expensive solutions were covered, with a lot less fuss than some of the cheeper ones.
Their solution of buying back and scrapping pickups with possible bad frames is more expensive than supplying replacement frames on the long run - but it gets the "problem" solved permanently.
Now the BIG question- - - - - - IS the pedal sticking the WHOLE problem with the throttle systems??? It is definitely PART of the problem, and I trust the fix they have come up with will solve THAT problem. And it is a very simple fix .
Is there a deeper problem???? Perhaps - but untill that problem is : 1 - confirmed and 2- isolated and identified
it cannot be addressed. Just like the pedal problem.
When it IS confirmed and it IS isolated and identified, you can be sure it WILL be addressed and repaired. And the repair for THAT problem, whatever it proves to be, will also be done right.
At this point they could dig into and rewrite all the code for the controller and just make it WORSE instead of better, not knowing what, if any, problem exists in the code.
They could add layers of protection to hide whatever the problem is - and just mask it untill it becomes even worse because the real cause is ignored. Toyota does not do it that way, generally speaking.. They want to identify what REALLY is wrong and solve the problem at the source. Generally the most cost effective as well as the most effective way overall to solve a problem - and learn from it so THAT problem won't catch them again.
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On 2/5/2010 1:10 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

What's yer point? Are you suggesting that "whitey" engineers treat grease monkeys any differently? That's great! Don't forget that all old Toyotas will rust away too.
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On Fri, 05 Feb 2010 18:10:33 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Not my experience as a three time owner. Sure, run of the mill stuff got fixed. As soon as I ran into an issue that (repair of) would have triggered a widespread recall and millions of cars to repair, it hit the legal channels. The proof was in teh pudding - My claim was worth about $300 for parts and labor to fix, but instead they paid a regional manager to talk to me and for the corporate lawyers to draw up a letter with specifics concerning my class denying my claim.
Again, their actions in the sludge issue, the frame rot issue, and the accelerator issue (years of denial) support my opinion.

The only "culture" issue I see is not one of ethnicticity, although it may be a derivative of cultural heritage and tradition. Toyota comes on strong when there is a major issue and refuses to accept fault. That is, in many ways, a traditional Japanese style of management.

Again, not my experience, or that of people with problems like sludge or this sudden acceleration issue. Were you still at a dealer when the sludge problem appeared?

They've refused to put time into even finding the problem. Hence the hard step of the NHTSA into the arena. They kept denying and denying as long as they could - until the uproar forced them to recognize it. If they'd spent more time believing owners instead of denying the problem, it would probably be fixed already.

Yeah, now that their reputation is on the line, they want to fix it. They didn't seem to care before it reached critical mass - as with every major problem.
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What were the details - year and model - failure mode???

No - but I DO know, from talking to they guys still there, that NO vehicle that had it's oil changed every 5000KM or 4 months ever came into that dealership with a sludge problem. Not a single one.
Same at the local Chrysler dealerships.

That is not totally true. This "uninteded accelleration" or "sticky throttle" issue has been being investigated by toyota dealer, at least in Canada for quite some time, but untill they could actually get one to stick while in a mechanic's hands, there was not an awfull lot THEY could do about it. At the time of the recall there were LESS THAN 12 CONFIRMED incidents of throttles sticking in Canada, and NO ACCIDENTS.

Again. Not my experience in the almost 13 years I worked at Toyota dealerships starting from 1971 ( with a long break in between).
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snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca writes

accidents and no injuries. As Europe has over 500 million people and USA only 300 million, the problem would seem to be America being a far more litigate minded society, jumping on the bandwagon of getting something for nothing.
--
Clive


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wrote:

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Doubtful. The news articles about the guys who filed the class action specifically mentioned they had PROOF in the form of receipts for oil changes from the Toyota dealers for the required service intervals. Unless the dealers were selling them sub-standard oil, the evidence clearly pointed to a bad engineering change. Toyota backed down and extended the warranty, which speaks volumes to me that the problem was very real and they knew it.
Derek
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On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 19:22:05 -0500, "Derek Gee"

what I said. Read it again. And again - I said with oil changed ever 5000KM - that is 3000 MILES, or every 3 months. (sorry - I said 4 months - I meant 4 changes per year - every 3 months) The A schedule required maintenance allows significantly longer drain intervals - and it is these longer drain intervals that caused the problem in both Toyota and Chrysler - as well as Honda..
The vast majority of the cars that had the problem TECHNICALLY should have been following the "extreme conditions" schedule. Toyota extended the warranty because they allowed the longer drain intervals and didn't design the engine to be able to accept those longer drain intervals under adverse conditions.
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According to the Automotive News, the Extreme schedule is 5,000 miles and the extended is 7,500 miles. NOBODY should have been changing at 3,000 miles if they were following the service manual recommendation. If they were changing that often, I would expect there wouldn't be any sludging, but as you point out, Toyota didn't design for that interval!
http://www.yotarepair.com/Automotive_News.html
Derek
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