Re: US car dealers turn away Canadian new-car buyers - is that legal?

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I sent my message directly to snipped-for-privacy@news.telus.net by fault. If you have recieved my message please post it on this newsgroup so people can view my points ,
thx
my points in brief, is that the population of Canada is just about the population of California. Dealership won't dare ruin their relationship with Manufacturer by selling cars to Canadian just for a period of cross border shopping frenzy. Dealership cherish their good relationship with the manufacturer, cuz they can make really better profit by buying cars at bigger reduction on their whole sale value, if they get a better rating from Manufacturer.
My suggestion to canadian is to keep their money in their pocket until the Canadian retail market get starve, so the retails would lower they already high profit margins. On the other hand, wait til the US economy to crash, so the snobs would eventually fight for our loonies in the pockets.
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snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

Very good suggestion, that's what I'm going to do. Thank goodness Chrysler made my Concorde (CDN assembled car) very well and parts are readily available. My dealer doesn't like it though, they reminded me how old it is the other day when I bought a small part they don't have in local stock. Considering the very significant design changes now being made to cars because of high and increasing fuel prices, it isn't a good time to buy a vehicle for a long term keep anyway.
I can see the reluctance of manufacturers to reduce Canadian prices until this currency situation levels out, however they could use rebates quite effectively in this situation. The more expensive vehicles have the biggest price difference and some expensive car dealers, such as Porsche and BMW, have already announced rebates.

Unfortunately that is happening and the USA $ is dropping to levels even the currency experts weren't expecting. (C$1 = US$1.048 now) The USA is dropping interest rates and CDA needs to keep interest rates where they are or even higher to avoid excessive inflation; this will drop the USA $ even more. As the USA economy and $ drop the Canadian economy is negatively affected. The Canadian forestry industry has already been affected by both the USA housing recession plus the falling USA $; many Canadian lumber mills are shutting down. So many CDNs may soon not have jobs to pay for the cars at any price.
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"Steve W." wrote:

We are not talking about restrictions on where (physically, geographically) a dealer can operate from.
We are talking about a US dealer refusing to sell a new car to a Canadian customer soley on the basis that the customer is Canadian.
There is no question as to the ability of the Canadian to produce funds or sufficient payment. There is no issue as to how the Canadian customer moves the purchased vehicle away from the dealership to it's destination (where-ever that may be). The sale is not contingent on the dealer delivering the car to the Canadian customer's place of residence, or a responsibility to insure the car can be registered for operation in the customer's jursidiction.

Restraint of trade laws say that it is illegal to have a contract between two parties that restricts trade between them.
That would make it illegal for a car maker to have a clause in a franchise agreement stating that the dealer is prohibited from selling products to specified persons or groups.
If a GM franchise agreement with a Detroit car dealership states that the dealership can't sell new cars to Canadian citizens, then couldn't a MacDonald's franchise agreement have a clause saying that Big Mac's can't be sold to blacks?
Are you saying there is no law that would make such a clause illegal?
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MoPar Man wrote:

Blacks: Protected class.
Canadians: Not protected class.
Certain laws trump others.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
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Bill Putney wrote:

Ok, replacem blacks with Asians, or native indians.

Ok, what law trumps what other law then?
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A franchise agreement is a private contract. If the franchisor stipulates a condition that the franchisee cannot sell across an international boundary, then the franchisee has to choose to honour, or defy the conditions of the agreement. If the penalty for breaching the contract is loss of the franchise, then that is the result.
I believe that only discrimination that you can't include in a contract would be areas protected by constitutional provisions, or by specific legislation. Certainly here in Canada protection from racial discrimination is provided by the Charter of Rights. Any service business has the right to refuse service to anyone they choose, as long as it does not violate Charter Rights.
Ford operates in Canada as a separate company, Ford Motor Company of Canada, and that could lead to warranty restrictions if they so choose. ?
MoPar Man wrote:

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Wes 94 ZR580 wrote:

There is no such cross-boarder selling in this case. The US dealer is not doing the leg-work to import the car into Canada - the Canadian customer is.
Why is that concept so hard to understand?
The new car will leave the US dealer's car lot either by the Canadian customer driving it off the lot himself, or with his own hired flatbed transport.
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I'm sure if you walked in and paid cash, there would be no questions asked...
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May I refer you to the last line of the first paragraph in the OP's original post:
On September 27, Mopar wrote...
Now that the Canadian dollar has reached parity with the US dollar (1 USD = 1CDN), the media here in Canada is running many news items pointing out that US car dealers are turning away Canadians who want to plunk down cash to buy a new car. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ The dealers say that their franchise agreements prevent them from selling vehicles to people who live outside their territory. I remember from a few years ago where there were moderate differences in prices in the Chicago area and all sorts of games were being played (both by customers and dealers) to sell cars to people outside a dealer's franchise area.
In any case, it seems like some of the off-brand vehicles (Hundai sp?, Suburu sp?) are more likely to look the other way and sell to Canadians.
But I'm wondering if franchise agreements that contain geographic-based sales clauses are violating any trade laws that may be on the books in the US, and hence could be used to break this rule and open the floodgates to the many Canadians that are ready to save $4k to $30k on a new vehicle.
In the mean time, can anyone point to entities called "independent dealers" who buy new vehicles and turn around and re-sell them (as used) even if they haven't been used?
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wrote:

Actually, there *would* have to be some questions asked and the answers recorded.
For openers, there are US Federal banking rules on recording of transactions over $10,000. And I strongly suspect that Canada has similar laws if you wanted to take the car in the other direction.
The dealer needs a name and address to fill out the title transfer paperwork for the car - even if the dealer doesn't handle the titling and registration of the new car, they still need to fill out and give the title form to the buyer so the buyer can handle it themselves.
And they have to apply in the state of sale for temporary registration so the car can be driven away, unless the buyer wants to have the car shipped across the border to it's destination.
The car maker has the right to find out those details, and if the dealer made sales transactions that violated the franchise agreements the car maker can choose to take action.
--<< Bruce >>--
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That's the meat of it.
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And for three easy cash payments of $9999 this car can be yours!
Don't be silly, every one of these can be worked around if the dealer wants to make the sale. It is not much different that here in New England where people register in Vermont.
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It is different. Selling across state lines is different then selling across national boundaries. The US is one big market, the US and Canada are two separate markets even with NAFTA. I live in MA and bought my car in Nashua NH. The dealer registered my car in MA for me because there is nothing to stop someone from NH registering a car in MA on behalf of someone from MA, the US constitution expressing prohibits the states from erecting trade barriers between each other. As a MA resident I'm bound by MA law so even though I bought the car in NH I had to pay MA sales tax (NH has no sales tax). MA cleverly insures that the sales tax on cars is paid by requiring that it be paid to the Registry of Motor Vehicles at the time that the car is registered, my dealer took my sales tax check to the Registry for me just like they would if they had been a MA dealer. I'm also required to buy a car that meets California emission standards, NH residents aren't, so even though my dealer is in Nashua most of the cars on their lot all have the California emissions package because a substantial portion of their customers are from MA. If I had wanted to by a diesel from them I couldn't unless I had a NH address because diesels don't meet MA emissions standards.
Restrictive sales agreements are very hard to enforce without the cooperation of governments. State governments aren't allowed to make trade policy so there is no one to give a company cover if they wanted to restrict their dealers from engaging in interstate trade. National governments are always torn between free and restricted trade policies. On the one hand almost all economists favor free trade so we have agreements like NAFTA. On the other hand politicians don't like free trade because they are more sensitive to the jobs that are lost, which are more visible, then to jobs that are gained which don't make headlines. So the US and Canadian governments aren't going to do anything to help their consumers do cross border shopping, quite the opposite they are going to erect as many barriers as they can. For example when US consumers tried to by pharmaceuticals from Canada, where there is price fixing, the FDA forbade it on the grounds that these drugs might be unsafe as if Canada was some third world country with no drug regulations.
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The CDN Gov is helping CDNs buy USA cars by posting helpful info on their web site.
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General Schvantzkopf wrote:

The US new car dealer IS NOT SELLING INTO CANADA.
The US new car dealer is selling to a Canadian resident. The US dealer is not authorized to collect Canadian taxes. The Canadian customer must show proof to the relavent Provincial department of Transportation that applicable provincial sales taxes were paid before the vehicle can be licensed for operation on public motorways. Such taxes are uaually paid at the boarder when the vehicle is brought into Canada.

The Canadian federal gov't and the various Provincial gov'ts do not prohibit the importation of vehicles (new or used) by Canadian citizens from the US into Canada, and they do not employ restrictive or onnerous tactics to prevent the lawful registration and use of those vehicles in Canada. To the contrary, the Canadian gov'ts publish guides explaining how to perform such importation and registration.
The US and relavent State gov'ts have no rules or mechanisms in place to prevent or hinder the sale of new or used cars to Canadians by US dealers.
Hence this is not an issue of trade policy or trade law between countries.
This is a restraint-of-trade issue which makes such clauses in franchise agreements illegal if not unenforcible.
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It's like most the people responding to your question didn't read your question.... strange.. it must frustrate you.
To answer your question; it's illegal for the dealerships not to sell you a car on the basis of your race - that violates the civil rights you can enjoy while in the jurisdiction of the states. (You do not have to be a US citizen but instead just be in the states to have rights.) Having a policy not to sell to Canadians is no different as having a policy not to sell to Jews or Blacks. When I say Jews or Blacks, people can automatically see the point more clearly.
The agreement between the manufacture and the dealership is mute and has no merit. Your problem is NOT with the manufacture but instead the dealership that is breaking the law and pulling the trigger so to speak. Of course, the franchise agreement is illegal however that's not for you to dispute but the dealership. You must make your claim against the dealership.
3 main points to prove in a discrimination complaint / law suit:
1. Is the discrimination intentional = yes, the dealership/manufacture state it's their policies NOT to sell to Canadians that are in their stores and buying their products within the USA. This isn't an export issue or tax issue (there is procedures already in place for both of those issues so they are mute.)
2. Motive = their motive is profit: their policy is to protect their dealerships on both sides of the border.
3. To prove that this policy exists. This is usually the hardest to prove. You can always scream discrimination however who in the world is going to admit it? Well, the dealerships will every time.
You'd think with the 1, 2, 3 covered people would line up and take the dealerships to court. The problem is, people are don't understand they have the right to and they are lazy and assume the worst.
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snipped-for-privacy@miona.com wrote:

Canuk is not a race. Race is a protected class. Nationality is not a protected class.
> ...- that violates the civil rights

No - it clearly does not.

Yes it is (though your *conclusion* on restraint of trade may be right, but not for the reason you cite).

Your conclusions may be right, but for the wrong reasons - civil rights (as defined by U.S. federal law) is not the issue. Races and religions are protected classes (civil rights as defined by federal law). Nationality (i.e., being Canadian) is not a protected class. (Currently, protected classes are race, color, sex, creed, and age.)
Like I said, you may or may not be right that trade restrictions across borders are illegal, but if it is illegal, it would not be illegal for the same reason that not selling to blacks or to jews would be illegal.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
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Mute? You mean they told the dealer to keep quiet about it?
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Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

LOL!
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
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Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

No, you need to keep quiet about the fact that Canadians are not a protected class!
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