Screw Consumer Reports

At best CR is a guideline for those who are not "into" cars and want some type of "quasi independent" rankings. At worst for those who don't agree with CR's ratings it's useless.

Eric

Reply to
Eric Toline
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Perhaps, but in the US more buyers still choose GM, Ford and Chrysler vehicles over Toyota or Honda. They must believe GM, Ford and Chrysler vehicles are better, no matter what CR believes ;)

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

You might consider actually looking at what CR says about cars before you denounce what they say (or more accurately didn't say).

Let's see April '06 issue p. 49. The Crown Vic gets an average rating for reliability and owner satisfaction and is recommended. Then on page 63 we have the Grand marquis that gets an average rating for reliability and for owner satisfaction and is recommended. (Both get black dots for depreciation.)

Gee, they rate the same. What the heck are you talking about?

Reply to
GRL

Actually, the Honda Accord is the #2 best selling medium sized sedan. The Camry is #1. The Prius is the best selling hybrid. Honda Odysseys sell very well, although Chrysler may out-sell them (Odysseys are pricey). The Civic sells well in a crowded segment. And gee, no rebates on any of them!

Reply to
GRL

Uh, you are abusing the term "problematic". It means:

Debatable: open to doubt or debate; "If you ever get married, which seems to be extremely problematic"

Baffling: making great mental demands; hard to comprehend or solve or believe; "a baffling problem"; "I faced the knotty problem of what to have for breakfast"; "a problematic situation at home"

It does not mean trouble-prone as you seem to think. And, again, you are misinterpreting the five year old model reliability numbers that CR publishes. Please read the caption next to the graphs.

Reply to
GRL

Let's see. Page 80 of the April, 2006 issue. Recommended used cars include:

Chevy Prism, Ford Escort, Ranger and Mustang, Mercury Tracer, Saturn SL, Buick Regal, Ford Crown Vic and F-150, Mercury Grand Marquis, Buick Century and Regal, Lincoln Continental and Town Car, Chevy Silverado, PT Cruiser, GMC Sierra, Chevy Impala, Chevy Monte Carlo, Pontiac Vibe, Pontiac Grand Prix, Saturn Ion...

OK, I'm getting tired of writing names. Point is, you have no clue what you are talking about.

The avoid list has no Toyotas, but it does have the Honda Passport. Also a whole bunch of Nissans and lots and lots of domestic and European models...including Mercs and Porsches.

Reply to
GRL

Mike,

why do you keep repeating this misinformation? Toyota is #3 right now, unless you have a cite that contradicts the figures I've already posted.

nate

Mike Hunter wrote:

Reply to
N8N

Haven't been in this thread before but it would be interesting to look at sales divided into two categories A) People buying personal cars with their own money and B) People buying cars for someone else with public or corporate money (fleets, rentals, etc.) I suspect that GM/DC/Ford would lead in category B and that Toyota and Honda would lead in category A. Don't know that for a fact. Just my opinion.

Howard

89 Mustang 5.0 95 Windstar 3.8
Reply to
Howard Nelson

You're probably right, in part because most fleet buyers don't even consider foreign cars because they don't want to appear unpatriotic.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see the US mfgrs. get back on their feet and start producing cars that people actually want; minimizing the problem doesn't help to solve it though.

nate

Reply to
N8N

What difference does it make who buys their vehicles? I owned a fleet service business up until a few years ago. We serviced thousands vehicle for large and small corporate fleets as well as government fleets, is six eastern states. EVERY manufacture offers specially equipped vehicles to corporate fleets at a discount, of around the same amount $400 to $600 if you buy five or more, and they all try to get more of the corporate fleet business. Few corporate fleets buy very many imports because contrary to what many believe, import can not compete with domestics in the total cost of ownership over the five years, or 300K, fleets generally keep their vehicles because of federal depreciation tax laws. Fleet vehicles get the finest of preventive maintance and are generally used harder than privately owned vehicles. Fleets look at the total cost of acquiring, insuring, maintaining, repairing (they ALL need to be repaired at some point) and replacing the vehicles which are just one more tool used in their business that must be replaced at some point. Ford motor company vehicles are generally the best in that regard, that is why the biggest majority of corporate fleet vehicles are Fords. GM is second. LOOK at the corporate light trucks you see daily, Ford trucks dominate. The only state I know of that buys import brands is Tennessee, they use Nissan trucks that are assembled there. The biggest problem with most imports is acquisition costs, that average 25% higher for the same type of vehicle, and down time because of parts availability. As well as the much higher price of the parts themselves.

On the bottom end of fleet car business, imports have a majority of business, however Primary Korean cars that are used as courier cars, others are Corollas, Civics, Neon's, VWs, Focus etc. Courier cars are run round the clock and rarely turned off except for maintenance. They easily accumulate 100K a year or more and are dumped sooner.

mike hunt

. "Howard Nelson" wrote in message news:coGPf.34907$ snipped-for-privacy@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...

Reply to
Mike Hunter

"Mike Hunter" wrote in news:Q0SdnROSP snipped-for-privacy@ptd.net:

yeah, yeah. We've heard it a bunch that you've owned a fleet business.

It *matters* who's buying the vehicles because, as is frequently reported, the fleet or rental business leaves little or NO profit in the cars the manufacturer is selling. Fleet sales can keep a factory busy or artifically boost a vehicles sales numbers, but they do little for the profitability of the company.

JP

Reply to
Jon Patrick

Actually I owed a business that SERVICED fleet vehicles. I guess you missed the part of the post that listed the average fleet discount offered to dealers, to sell to fleets, is only between $400 and $600 among all brands

Perhaps you might want to do a bit of research before you choose to comment on a subject of which you obviously have little or no knowledge. Manufactures can not sell directly to corporations or anybody else, that is a violation of franchise laws. Manufactures can only sell to their franchise dealers. The dealers sell the cars to fleets, generally based on bids. The guys that settler for the lower profits to get the fleet business are the dealers. ;)

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

"Mike Hunter" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@ptd.net:

didn't much care. Owned a fleet biz. or owned a biz that services, you're still presenting yourself as a fleet expert. Semantics at this point relative to the discussion.

not at all, I just don't believe it. Besides, regardless of the narrow definition you'll choose to use, 'fleet' includes the rental agencies, and that is specifically what I was referring to. I'd be curious to know the relative sales through "fleet" as you define it and rental agencies... ie-what percentage of "fleet" sales in total is to rental agencies. Those are the sales that keep people working with no profit margin for the manufacturer.

Perhaps you should be less beligerent and a jerk. You're here defending american auto manufacturers and their sagging market share against all logic, reason, and fact presented to you. You won't even acknowledge the other viewpoints, and you weaken your own points along the way.

Reply to
Jon Patrick

Actually I'm not defending anyone but I am as expert as anybody in the business. I've worked in vehicle design for three manufactures, in top management of retail group for ten years and in fleet service for ten since I graduated from college in 1949.

You are free to believe whatever you wish. I am merely point out the facts available to anybody willing to do the search. GM still is the number one selling manufacture in the US, period. In the fast growing market in the US GM, Ford and Chrysler still sell more than ALL of the twenty or so import manufactures that offer vehicle for sale in the US, combined. Those are facts not opinion. Who chooses to buy their vehicles is immaterial. Rental fleets are simply not the same as corporate fleets in how they use and service the vehicles they own or lease and that too is a fact, whether you happen to agree or not. Call any dealership of you choose and ask for the fleet Sales Manger, or the person that sell to fleets for the dealership. Ask him what is the amount of the fleet discount, pretty simple stuff. Manufactures can not sell to anybody but dealerships and that is a fact as well Seems you are the one being a jerk because you do not like that what you believe is being challenged.

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

Yep. But they're losing ground. In both share and units sold. And they're losing money.

Fast-growing? Look at India and China. And Toyota will probably be #1 World-Wide next year.

Business-as-usual isn't going to cut it. Hmmm... I wonder how many HHRs we'll export? SSRs?

You don't even see GM cars in the Caribbean. Bah.

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Reply to
dh

What is your point, the discussion was about the US market where buyers buy mostly light trucks, SUVs and a few little cars like those that Toyota sells around the world. The US market is by far the biggest in the world. When GM sold 50% of the vehicles in the US the total market was around 8,000,000. Today, when GM is selling 26% of the market, it is around 17,000,000. You do the math.

Me thinks you are just one more of the Toyota owners that find a need to go into other brand NGs to try and justify to themselves why they paid a premium price to buy an under powered 4cy car that they now realize is no better than any of the other cars on the market. ;)

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

Well, it doesn't help Toyota break into the domestic dominated fleet biz when they (according to :

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from the article) "MY06 PRIUS FLEET AVAILABILITY Due to Toyota?s exceptionally low retail dealer days supply position and an anticipated increase in future retail Prius demand stimulated by the recent passage of the Federal Highway Bill (retail tax credits & HOV lane eligibility), Toyota Motor Sales, USA Inc. is not in a position to accept MY06 Prius fleet production orders specific to government & rental fleets. This regrettable but necessary action is being taken as a result of the company?s need to address the extreme shortage of Prius availability at the dealer retail level. Toyota Dealers are advised to suspend all MY06 Prius fleet sales solicitation and cancel all existing order agreements until further notice. Toyota Motor Sales, USA Inc. will restore Prius fleet availability to government & rental fleets once production volumes are sufficient to meet both retail and fleet order demand.

With respect to all Commercial fleet sales, availability will remain very limited with longer than normal order-to-delivery timing (possibly in excess of 6 months). Commercial fleet orders will most likely need to be spread out over several order/delivery months as we manage customer demand against our established monthly production guides. It is advisable to consult with your respective TMS Fleet Field Manager and/or PD Fleet Manager specific to our ability to support a Commercial customer on Prius. (end quoted portion).

So, when the fleet owner sends out his RFB (requests for bids) no wonder Toyota doesn't even send a thank-you note back.

Reply to
BuckerooBanzai

The US may be the largest SINGLE NATIONAL market but its GROWTH is paltry compared to others, where our manufacturers have little presence or brand awareness.

Those are all pretty figures but Toyota is poised to be #1 WORLDWIDE. Place your bets. Will GM turn a profit off auto manufacturing in 2006? Place your bets.

GM's competition is WORLDWIDE. GM has to make money WORLDWIDE. To shrug off Toyota's increasing market share here as still smaller than GM's shrinking share is foolish.

Ummm, my primary "under-powered 4 cylinder car" is a Toyota Sienna V6 that outperformed the domestic products I tried, which were priced almost exactly the same. I tested it last and decided to buy it right after I hit the accelerator. Gas mileage as good or better than the domestic product, too.

Of course, I do have two more Toyotas, 4-cylinder Ravs. They're not underpowered but I can't deny that they do have 4-cylinder engines. They get great gas mileage, too. Is that a bad thing?

I don't have to justify these cars to myself. They justify themselves to me every time I drive past the Toyota dealership WITHOUT STOPPING.

GM - and Ford - must build cars like that. Then they have to start exporting them.

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Reply to
DH

Re: Screw Consumer Reports Group: alt.autos.ford Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2006, 10:44am From: snipped-for-privacy@mailcity.com (Mike=A0Hunter)

What is your point, the discussion was about the US market where buyers buy mostly light trucks, SUVs and a few little cars like those that Toyota sells around the world. =A0 The US market is by far the biggest in the world.

When GM sold 50% of the vehicles in the US the total market was around

8,000,000. Today, when GM is selling 26% of the market, it is around 17,000,000. You do the math.
Reply to
Eric Toline

"Mike Hunter" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@ptd.net:

Even though we're not seeing eye-to-eye... if GM is as healthy as you're attempting to paint them, then why 25 + years of layoffs and plant closings? Do you feel it's just because they're moving production to canada, mexico, etc.? jp

Reply to
Jon Patrick

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