Screw Consumer Reports

Wrong...read my previous post. Selling Fleet is the best form of advertising especially in the hands of rental fleets. It is and has always been one of the best ways to get a buyer interested in your product. You rent him one and if you have a good product chances are he will like it and consider one as his next purchase.

Don't judge all Japanese cars by Ford owned, managed and product shared with Mazda.

No, that is not a bad thing. We know you prefer Toyotas that is why you buy them, you do not need to try to justify your choice to others, you are free to spend your money where you wish. But more buyer still prefer GM, Ford and Chrysler products. Thanks for making my point about Toyota being under power and over priced. however. For what you had to pay to drive home your underpowered 4cy Toyota SUV you could have purchased one of nearly a half dozen other small SUVs on the market that are just a good, but have a more powerful V6 engines and come with more standard equipment, that are also good on gas. After all the number one selling small SUV is not a Toyota or a Honda it is a Ford, and by big numbers ;)

mike hunt

I'm not painting anything. I was simply replying to those Toyota owners, posting in this FORD NG that believe their Toyotas are so great. I pointed to the sales figures for 2005 released by the US Commerce department PROVE most American do not agree with the Toyota owner opinion as to who makes the best vehicles.

GM, Ford and Chrysler sold 57% of the 18,500,000 vehicles sold in the US in

2005. Toyota, and ALL of the other twenty some imports brands combined, sold the other 43%. Domestic have the number one selling vehicle, in every class where Toyota competes in the US, except one. The only Toyota that actually sells in big numbers in the US is the mid size Camry. It is the number ONE selling single brand name mid size vehicle sold in the US. GM actually sells more midsize cars than Toyota however, they just do not carry the same brand name. ;)

mike hunt

That is not quite correct, ALL dealers buy from the manufacture at the same prices regardless of volume. Anything different is a violation of franchise law. ANY discount or incentive offer applies to all dealerships. Bigger dealerships would like buyers to THING they buy for less, but they do not. They do not get lower prices or greater incentive, than smaller dealerships, because of their volume. There are indeed incentives based on sales figure that smaller dealerships may not be able to meet, but the smaller dealership get a larger incentive on a fewer number of vehicles if he chooses. If a manufacture offers a special discount to a dealership to attain a large order of like vehicles to a particular fleet, every dealership become entitled to sell, or 'piggyback' that same price to any other fleet buyer. In any event nobody, not the manufacture and not the dealership, is selling at a loss. They are simply accepting a lower profit on more vehicles. contrary to what many believe imports try all the time to get fleet sales as well. They are just not as successful doing so, for a number of reasons.

mike hunt

mike hunt

"Ted Mittelstaedt" wrote in message news:newscache$g3ayvi$fy6$ snipped-for-privacy@news.ipinc.net...

Why does everyone think 'rental cars' when the discussion turns to fleets? Rental company take only a relative small percentage of the vehicle sold or leased to fleets. The biggest majority of fleet vehicle in the US are cooperate fleets that use truck, light trucks and SUVS Cars account for only about 1/3 of the fleet vehicles sold annually in the US.

Actually nobody should judge ANY vehicle, good or bad, by the ONE they may have owned. Particularly if you are a used car buyer. ;)

mike hunt

Shooting the messenger won't make Ford's any better.

Apparently more buyers already think Fords are better. Better than any others, except GM. LOL

mike hunt

True. My folks ended up renting Chrysler 5th Avenue on vacation in Canada many years ago. When it was time to buy a new car that is what they bought. But it only works if the car is good the the rental company maintained the car well. I myself have been turned off many cars because of rental car experience. Some was the manufacturers fault (Dodge Lancer-horrible seats) and Chevy Chevette (no explanation required.

Proving your point how? I tested several minivans and selected the Toytoa Sienna (text you clipped) largely because it had the best acceleration. "Underpowered" is relative, at best. If the Sienna's hotter than the others, it's absurd to call it "underpowered."

The Rav4s aren't underpowered, either. I drive them where and when I please and keep up or pass as I see fit.

Overpriced? Another claim you pulled from your butt. They simply hold their value on the used market, so well, in fact, that KBB says I could sell both my Rav4s for what I paid or more.. The gas price spike of a few months back probably helped that a lot.

For people with a functioning brain, automotive expense is what determines value and whether or not something's overpriced.

Right now, I have no realizable depreciation on my Ravs. That's pretty good.

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That's right. That's why we all troop down to the library and do research, using publications from organizations that survey LOTS of owners, starting with Consumer Reports. Then we get a CarFax on the prospects, then we have our mechanics check the prospects out, then we buy a Honda or a Toyota.

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And, conversely, if he rents something and discovers it's a POS, he'll know to look elsewhere to replace his current car.

Which is exactly what happened to a buddy of mine recently when he rented an Equinox.

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In the discussion at hand, rental fleets are important because of exposure. MANY people will drive a Grand Am that Hertz or Avis rents out over the course of a year and it will leave MANY impressions along the way. Fleets that hand over the keys to a single individual for a year or two at a time are not the same kind of advertising vehicle.

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Of course, they is always a minority that will believe the opinions of the rest of the others in the minority.

mike hunt

This must make the tester's day. Imagine you been driving one econobox after another for months on end and, suddenly, your boss hands you the keys to a Boxster or 'Vette and says, "We need this evaluated..."

Whoa, baby!

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So, according to you, we should not form our opinion based on ONE experience with a vehicle (March 12, 4:27pm) but neither should we do some research using the broadest end-user surveys commonly available (March 13, 1:57pm).

What's left? Ouija boards and Tarot cards? Is that your recommendation?

Look, if it's any consolation to you, I not only look at personal experience (Fords and VWs suck, GMs are so-so, Toyotas rock) and CR (Fords and GMs often suck, VWs usually suck, Toyotas and Hondas usually rock) but I also solicit the opinions and experiences of my friends (domestics suck, Toyotas and Hondas rock) and my mechanic ("domestics are my cash cows but I really appreciate people who buy VWs and please don't buy that Toyota because I'm trying to send kids to college").

See any themes there? I sure do.

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You certainly are entitled to your own opinion and can spend your money wherever you wish. If you want to rely on the opinions of others, look at the sales figures. Most buyers do not agree with your opinion or spend their money were you do, or as CR suggests. When it comes time to spend their hard earned money US buyers buy a lot more products for GM, Ford and Chrysler than they do from Toyota, Honda or any other import brand, period. The true test of what is 'best' is in the total annual sales figures. Obviously more buyer believe domestics make the better vehicles

mike hunt

Oh, I see, buy GM because they're #1. So, even if we ALL agreed that not only is their overal quality, reliability and longevity lower, that their products were more expensive, less fuel-efficient, less fun to drive, less stylish, less powerful, less useful, that the sheer weight of their previous years' sales numbers would be the reason for buying their products.

That's a very intriguing notion. And, actually, that seems to be pretty much the GM executive leaderhip's plan; screw the UAW and lower-level white collar workers (google GM and pension), shovel as much cash into their own pockets as possible and take rapacious advantage of customer loyalty until the wheels fall off the corporation.

Bzzt. Wrong. That's the true test of what is "popular," not what is "best."

Which, by the way, would be better? Being #1 in auto sales (worldwide) and losing money? Being #2 in auto sales (worldwide) and making money?

Another poster sure nailed it when he observed that GM's unit volume hasn't increased at all in the last 20 years or so of this "ever-expanding US market" (your description and he was using your own figures).

It's pretty sad for GM that ALL the expansion in the US market in the last

20 years has been sucked up by other car companies..

Now, why would that be?

I have to wonder where GM is going this year. Along my routine walk, to and from work, there's a used-car dealer and a Chevy dealer. Both their inventories are, quite obviously, heavily loaded with trucks and SUVs (the lot also has Caddies). No compacts or economy cars. Friday, an auto-carrier pulled in with an SSR, a couple of Equinoxes and some other large things. Nothing small. I've seen an HHR or two on the road (they're easily recognized, they look like they've taken a long, hot soaking bath in Ugly) but I've never seen an SSR on the road. Is it a big seller? What does it cost to park a $25K truck on a Chevy dealer lot for 6 months?

By the by, the new trucks at the Chevy dealer display promotional signs in the high $20Ks and up. Just 50 yards down the road are earlier copies of these trucks ('99's to '01's) with $4K to $9K stuck to their windshields. And the used-car lot didn't pay that for them.

You know what actually moves off the used lot? They never keep a 5 to 6 year old pickup truck with a stick, 2WD and a four-banger for more than a few days. If they ever get economy cars, they must move faster, because none have lasted long enough for me to see one.

recommendation?

And you clipped the fun part of my previous post...

Look, if it's any consolation to you, I not only look at personal experience

(Fords and VWs suck, GMs are so-so, Toyotas rock) and CR (Fords and GMs often suck, VWs usually suck, Toyotas and Hondas usually rock) but I also solicit the opinions and experiences of my friends (domestics suck, Toyotas and Hondas rock) and my mechanic ("domestics are my cash cows but I really appreciate people who buy VWs and please don't buy that Toyota because I'm trying to send kids to college").

See any themes there? I sure do.

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