Solution to gas prices: Nationalization

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Bill Putney wrote:


But are people paying more for a given commodity in terms of percentage of income? To me the middle class is like a school of anchovies being herded by whales. More and more people shop at WalMart because they *have* to. The single breadwinner is a thing of the past. There's another ticking time bomb in the free market fundie's policies of the last few decades and that is credit. Few have savings and most are in debt up to their eyeballs.

The people that control oil wield great power globally and are not generally trusted. Record profits for Big Oil at a time when consumers are paying sky-high prices for gas is bound to raise suspicions. Have you read Daniel Yergin's "The Prize" or seen the 8 hour documentary based on the book?
The reviews are interesting: (Amazon.com product link shortened)
Interesting documentary on credit: http://saunders.rit.edu/idwt /
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F.H. wrote:

Anyone is free to build a business to compete with WalMart.

That's by collective choice. Once both hubby and wife started routinely working, the whole financial game changed to where it is now pretty much a necessity. This falls into the category of "be careful what you ask for". We asked for it, and we got it - warts and all.

All done by freedom of will and the direction that society thought it wanted to go in, so who's fault is that? Again - we asked for it, we got it.

No. But I will look into it.

10% profit for a business is bad because...
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
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Bill Putney wrote:

Apparently the percentages aren't a problem, (although I imagine debatable) its the anti-consumer tactics that have come under fire:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:H.R.1461 :
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Good point! In my area the price is very close to what it should be, given roughly 20% inflation since it was $0.28 CDN per Imperial gallon in the 1950s. However, wages have not kept pace in many jobs. The BC minimum wage then was $0.75 CDN per hour. That would equate to $15.00 per hour now, but in fact it's only $8.00 CDN. A person now has to work longer to get that gallon of gas.
Steve R.
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Steve R. wrote:

Bingo!
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Depends on ones perspective I supose. When I was in college in the late forties, one of my jobs was pumping gas. The minimum wage in the US was 25c and gas I was pumping was 23.9c. Now teh US minimum wage is between $5.50 and $7.20, and gas is $2.90 to $4, depending on the state.
According to the latest information on the US Commerce Department site, oil companies earn an average of 17c a gallon, station owners an average of 6c to 8c a gallon. The federal tax is 18.4c and the average state tax is 38c a gallon. One state is 44c and some add their sales tax on top of the fuel tax. I wonder who is making the most 'profit' on a gallon of gas? ;)
mike

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In true theory, if everything were adjusted for inflation, the price of everything should remain relative, except oil company profits of course. It is laughable that the only time you hear this crap is when people are trying to justify something that everyone knows both in their heart and mind is wrong. Not only are Oil companies using their total Monopoly to gouge consumers, but they share much of the blame for the policies in the Middle East. I am not speaking necessarily of the Iraq war, Democrat or Republican, but in policies carried out over the last several decades in which the interest of the Oil companies took preference and added to the current situation. I suppose you want farmers to suddenly raise their prices on food about 5 fold based on their costs compared to decades ago, and the same to all other goods as this inflation index is fair and such a great standard eh Bill?? I'm sure you think raising the minimum wage is inflationary as most people who make your idiotic argument usually state. Only salaries of management and CEO's has no inflationary effect. I'm sure these huge Oil company profits are the results of huge savings though out by Oil company executives who work hundreds of hours each weak for meager wages just to keep Oil prices in line with all other necessities based on the inflation index. LOL
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I'm not sure what you are waiting for, but the rest of us are waiting for you to move to Venezuela.

Any project that government undertakes will cost on average about 4 times what private enterprise would spend on the same project. The government's fingers in the auto industry cause prices to rise.
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I'd like to point out that our gasoline and Comrade Hugo's gasoline are not anywhere near the same product. We refine our gas to burn cleaner because we care about stuff like clean air -- I'll save the argument that we do not care enough for another day -- where Hugo doesn't give a rat's ass.
Hugo runs a failing economy, ours is vibrant and thriving.
Hugo inherited a nationalized oil industry, he did not create it. We also have more residents in California than Hugo has in his entire country.
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Jeff Strickland wrote:

One may agree or disagree with any of President Chavezs policies or statements, but a reasonable argument can be made that his government has contributed to stabilizing the region.
It has done so by using its $50 billion dollars of foreign exchange reserves to act as a lender of last resort, and provide other forms of financial aid to countries throughout the region. This is what the International Monetary Fund was alleged to have done in the past but almost never did.
It is especially important now that Latin America is going through a major historical transition, where governments of the left now preside over about half of the population of the region.
Latin America is emerging from a long period of failed economic reform policies, known as neoliberalism there, which resulted in the worst economic growth performance in more than 100 years.
Hint: neoliberalism is all the rage here right now and its influence is taking America in the same direction.
From 1980-2000, regional GDP (gross domestic product) per capita grew by just 9 percent, and another 4 percent for 2000-2005. By comparison, it grew by 82 percent in just the two decades from 1960-1980. As a result of the unprecedented growth failure of the last 25 years, voters have demanded change in a number of countries, including Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Ecuador, Nicaragua, and Uruguay.
Venezuela has loaned more than $3 billion to Argentina, and has loaned or committed hundreds of millions of dollars to Bolivia, Ecuador, Nicaragua, and other countries. It also provides subsidized credit for oil to the countries of the Caribbean, through its PetroCaribe program, and provided many other forms of aid to neighboring countries. These resources are provided without policy conditions attached - unlike most other multilateral (IMF, World Bank, Inter-American Development Bank) and bilateral aid. By providing these resources, Venezuela is helping other countries to bring their policies more in line with what voters have demanded, and greatly reducing the threat of economic crises in the process of doing so.
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Stablized the region, let me count the ways.
Stiffled the press. Killed or jailed his opponents. Spread fear through his police and military forces.
Wait, that's only within his own borders.

The worst economic forces that result from graft and corruption.
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Jeff Strickland wrote:

Better here, buy it, control it. Sell anything you want, like WMD's.

Good thing America was never involved in anything like *that*.

Have you read the Patriot Act? Do you know about Bush having wide latitude on declaring martial law?

Perhaps he envy's Bush.

Indeed.
http://www.economichitman.com /
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wrote in message

Yes, Bush has the latitude. The difference is Hugo Chavez has effectively exercised his latitude to instill martial law.

He hates Bush -- wait, that's just like you.
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Jeff Strickland wrote:

I'm *so* comforted. Far be it from the "Decider" to capitalize on powers he's not given under the Constitution. Or as he has referred to it "just a God Damned piece of paper."

The psychic is in. And priced right. ;)
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You're fighting a losing argument. People don't want to believe that their own government is capable of corruption, especially Americans. We're the good guys, and propaganda is what they did in Nazi Germany. It can't happen here.
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Robert Reynolds wrote:

Thanks. You're right. Never ceases to amaze me.
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Robert Reynolds wrote:

America may not be perfect but it is orders of magnitude better than the tropical gulag of Venezuela. Since Chavez has come into power, he has systematically decimated the country's economy and future while stockpiling short term political gains with favors and handouts to some. The standard of living, never that great, has been falling overall.
When Chavez's goons got control of PDVSA, the state oil company, they nearly have run the company into the ground as competent engineers were disposed of. Anyone who did not pledge total allegiance to Chavez was terminated, and I don't mean their job status. Land is being nationalized (read: taken away without compensation) from struggling but moderately successful farmers growing sugar cane and the like. The new "co-ops" collectively farming the land have largely yielded crop failures. The Wall St Journal had another article about how this is decimating the land, the environment, AND the economy in the last few weeks.
Gasoline is cheap in Venezuela, but it burns very dirty and pollution controls are non-existant. The nation will eventually pay a very stiff price in other ways for its cheap gas that encourages high consumption.
You may not like America's current President, but I can guarantee you he will not be in office in two years. Chavez will be in power for as long as he feels like, unless there is a successful coup against him.
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Owen wrote:

And therefore above suspicion with regard to corruption? Propaganda?

As always, truth is in the eye of the beholder and his favorite messenger:
There have been a number of articles recently (e.g. Christian Science Monitor,[4] Andres Oppenheimer in the Miami Herald[5]) claiming that poverty has actually increased under President Chavez, based on government statistics. This is also wrong, because:
a) These data do not include the non-cash income of the poor -- including subsidized food and access to health care services. Since there have been enormous changes in these areas, any comparison would have to take these changes into account in order to accurately measure the change in living standards of the poor. With subsidized food now reaching 46 percent of the population, this one program alone could easily push millions of people over the official poverty line that is based on cash income only. Any comparison of poverty today with past years that does not include these new benefits to the poor is essentially meaningless.

State oil company PDVSA will control at least 60% of the projects, which have been ceded by ConocoPhillips, Chevron, Exxon Mobil, BP, Statoil and Total.
Mr Chavez told cheering workers that foreign oil companies had damaged Venezuela's national interests and that reclaiming them represented an historic victory.
Mr Chavez has also said he wants to pull Venezuela out of the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank.
Hmmm, Saddam switched to the Euro and wound up dead. Somebody just might try to *kill* Chavez. Again. ;)

Heh, we would *never* do anything like *that* but then there are more subtle ways. Like converting the Dept of Justice into an extension of the RNC. Did you watch any of the senate hearing today?

Got a pick for the Belmont Stakes? And is that Jeb I see standing in the wings?

He seems quite popular right now and the CIA ain't what it used to be down there but you never know. Perhaps a plane accident or........., South American leaders who refuse help from the World Bank or thumb their noses at America seem to be accident prone.
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Dear oh dear... To what has the educational system come?
DAS
For direct replies replace nospam with schmetterling
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Dori A Schmetterling wrote:

Don't know about the ecucational system but Usenet apparently has come to telepathy.
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