T10 (Muncie too?) Transmission: Synchronizing Hub Orientation?

Which way is the 1st/2nd Gear Synchronizing Hub (the part with the inserts, a.k.a. "keys" or "struts") supposed to be oriented? That is, which side faces the front?
This hub is a sub-part of part #80 at www.drivetrain.com/transillgm_t10.html . It (or a similarly shaped one) is shown in the photo (beneath the words "... and also thicker and wider gapped teeth very noticeable in the picture") at http://www.tbtrans.com/muncie_4_speed.htm#diagram . One can see the lip on one side of the hub. That's what we're unsure about: Is the lip side of the hub closer to the aft end or forward end of the mainshaft?
This is for a circa 1965, 289 in^3, V8 Mustang.
I am taking a manual transmissions automotive course. This is the first time the instructor has overseen student breakdown and re-assembly of this particular transmission. He has already sent us down a few wrong paths. Unfortunately my team and I did not make decent drawings prior to disassembly (dummies all). Nor do we have a factory service manual. I finally located some drawings on the net and an old Chilton's manual description of this transmission's assembly. We're losing time and need to move onto other aspects of the drivetrain. (Though I can see us easily spending the rest of the course getting this tranny back together. We're also supposed to fix the tranny, since it won't go into reverse.) Help would sure be appreciated. I just want to learn as much as possible, but this is now becoming inefficient.
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Elle wrote:

I don't know from personal experience on this trans, and the assembly pic is not detailed enough to tell. From the closeup pic of the hub in your second link the offset is very noticable. All I could suggest if you don't get a better answer is to assemble it both ways on the shaft (maybe even without the synchro rings to speed this up) along with the other gears and hubs. The hub offset will only work one way and it should be obvious when you have it on the wrong way. A huge gap or an impossible fit should be evident. I'd be surprised if there weren't racing oriented overhaul books on this trans that would have the detailed assembly info you need.
Toyota MDT in MO
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After hours of googling yesterday and today I finally came up with this site (linked at the sub-page that seems most relevant): http://www.corvettemagazine.com/2005/july/transmission/transmission-26.asp
I have easily confirmed from several sites and drawings that the taper of the {1st gear-2nd gear} synchronizing sleeve points to the rear (that is, small end to the rear). Using that fact, from the photo above and the five or so photos after it it seems that the offset (that is, the boss on the hub) points forward. Can you offer your opinion from the photos?
The other day for three hours, with the instructor offering unhelpful input, I tried installing it both ways, putting the second gear on the mainshaft with the first gear and seeing how well they aligned with the countershaft's corresponding gears. I still wasn't certain I had it right. Boss pointing forward was my also best guess then, though.
Reading the following is troubling: "You should also note which direction the [first and second gear] clutch assembly faces. It can be assembled in either direction, but it will only work in one direction."
Many thanks. We have so much more to take apart, study, and re-assemble in this class, and the instructor is so lame and wastes so much time telling stories, to boot, that it is kind of discouraging. I am learning a lot, just not, as I said, very efficiently.
I'll try some more books at the library. I'm trying to do this without buying a manual, for which, you're right, there seem to be many available online, for one.
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Elle wrote:

That's a good article. I would concentrate on the fact that the 1/2 assembly and the 3/4 assembly are basically mirror images of each other. Besides the fact that the 1/2 is larger, they both look to be assembled the same way, only backwards of each other (as made nessesary by the shift forks mechanism). Which way does the 3/4 hub's offset face? I would suggest that the 1/2 hub faces opposite of the 3/4.
Also, I still submit that, when fully assembled, the hub direction will be obvious. Maybe you need to put the whole shaft together and look at the contact area between the sleeves and hubs. Maybe you will need to manually push the sleeves into both of their engaged positions to see the problem. Just compare the 3/4 with the 1/2 while doing so.
And yes, the sleeves and hubs will physically fit both ways, but since you now know which way the sleeves go (tapers outward) this shouldn't be too hard.
Toyota MDT in MO
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Elle wrote on the 1/2 hub orientation etc.:

I see your point.
All but one of the drawings I have, and the Corvette site above, confirm that the 3/4 sleeve faces the opposite way.

This I can't tell from any of my sources. BUT I do remember that we left the 3/4 clutch asssembly assembled (so the 3/4 sleeve is still engaged to its hub). So when I get back to our workbench at school, I can check on the orientation of the 3/4 hub, like you say.

I follow your reasoning.

I was trying that and it was still baffling.
But I'm a newbie and I am sure I need to give it another try.

Okay.
Your comments helped a lot. Thank you.
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wrote

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Sounds like your instructor is either very new at the job or it is past time for him to retire.

I can't imagine having my students work on a transmission without the proper repair manual, unless it was one they brought in on their own, against my better judgment. In that case they are expexted to learn from their mistakes.

Sorry to hear your instructor is attempting to teach a unit that he is not familiar with. I hope he at least has some areas in which he is proficient. I know that no one can know it all, but he should at least do what he has to, in order to prepare himself to teach the lesson properly. Sounds like you are doing a fine job of researching the information and perhaps that may be a valuable lesson in itself, so try not to be discouraged. Good research skills are very valuable in the automotive repair trade. I often let my students try to figure things out and research for themselves for that very reason, but I always make sure I know the correct procedure before I try to teach it.
--
Kevin Mouton
Automotive Technology Instructor
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The factory service manual doesn't show the hub orientation either, it -does- mention to mark them to avoid the problem.
It's been 2 years since I've done a Muncie, so I can't remember which way, but I can tell him that yes, the hubs will slide on the shaft either way, but once you stack the rest of the gears on the main shaft, it should be obvious if it's right or not.
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He is indeed new to the school and at the same time is kinda old.

Bless you.
I noted a number of these transmission sites said the same or else to mark the parts very carefully so one could get it back together correctly.

Yes, he does. He can talk theory pretty well and has us using the shop press pretty effectively for disassembly of the gears etc. on the shafts.
A few notes for those folks maybe reading here and thinking about teaching:
In the first few minutes of the first class he said he didn't care whether we came to class or not. He is very serious about that, and I noticed that already on most days so far only half the class shows up.
I would have thought he would have cautioned us about taking the transmission apart without at least doing careful drawings of our own. He just egged us on, instead. I get the feeling he thinks it's good for students to experience frustration; builds character sort of attitude? That's baloney, from where I'm sitting. My whole team wanted a manual and went looking for one, first thing. But the class is in theory 8 hours long. He chattered for an hour about nothing the first day, sent us on an hour break, then told us to take off and take apart the transmission. I didn't even know the difference between a transmission and a transaxle the first day. A little overview would have helped.
I finally came up with some T10 drawings for my team. Ultimately I turned up a Chilton's manual with a section on it. Now I have the web site.

Yes, that's how I feel.
I am also sort of bummed about the parts situation: So far our lab's supervisor can't get his hands on a gasket kit. Now we also need some new snap rings. Another instructor (who is just a bona fide king of educating, theory- and hands-on) was passing by while I worked the other day and asked me what our diagnosis for the (malfunctioning) transmission was. He knew the car and said he thought the detente balls and shift fork springs likely needed replacement. I said I saw those in the drawing; hadn't had a chance to study this; but would get on it. So we probably need these parts too. I suspect it may be more than a week before the parts arrive.
If I were running this lab (cheeky gal that I am), I would have told the students to forego repairs for now; just get it apart carefully (with drawings, a manual, etc.) and re-assemble. Let the next class do the diagnosis, hopefully working with the manuals and drawings we found, as well as an instructor properly re-acquainted with the T10.

I agree, from my own work on my Honda Civic over the last several years. But research and understanding the pros and cons of the manual is already one of my strengths. I /trusted/ that the instructor felt it was okay to go at this transmission willy-nilly. My mistake. I am trying to take responsibility for my and my team's errors here, but I can't help but think we were set up for failure.

I agree about the figuring out (in another life, I taught college engineering with a pretty serious hands on large, actual mechanical machines etc. lab), but if the students are going down the wrong path and just making a mess of it, they need to be set straight, lest too much time be wasted. And time is precious in these courses, as I'm sure you know.
I appreciate your input very much and I bet if I sat through your course, I'd wish we had more instructors like you.
I'm trying to get past blaming this instructor, of course. I suspect these schools just can't get the very best. I remind myself that just seeing up close, and putting my hands on, the clutch assembly (synchronizing ring, hub, sleeve, etc.) seeing how it works and all comes apart, is probably worth what I paid for the course. In the next three weeks, if I get to go through similar with the clutch (pressure plate, friction disc, release bearing, etc.) and the CV joints, then I really won't be able to complain. I am doing this because I enjoy working on my car.
Enough talk. Thanks again for your insight.
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I have never worked on a T10 transmission but I have done a couple of Ford Toploader 4 speeds. I all ways buy a "small parts kit" It includes all shift fork detent pins and springs, snap rings, rollers for the countershaft and reverse gear, brass blocker rings and gaskets. I will usually buy input shaft and main bearings.
The labor to tear these down and rebuild is the lion's share of the cost, so replace all the small stuff while in there. You will have less come backs and happier customers.
wrote

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I happened upon the Ford Toploaders in my research and understand. As you and I'm sure combover know, there's a lot of overlap in the gear configuration etc. Kind of interesting, at least to this tranny newbie.
Your suggestion about the parts is exactly what I need to know, because, as I mentioned, I can see getting parts holding us up.
Today I stopped by a local tranny shop to ask if they might have access to just the snap rings, and the guy said no way. He gave me an 800 number to an out of state shop. The Internet might be easiest? Dunno but I suspect I'll be googling for these kits by week's end. Not my job, but I can't see this getting done otherwise.

Understood. The instructor might have our heads for not having the car back together three weeks from now when the course ends, unless it turns out parts cannot be obtained easily. In which case a fair amount of the "blame" goes to him for ordering us to clean up the (really filthy all around) tranny until he could eat off it. We duly scraped off the old gaskets. She isn't going to hold tranny fluid without them, of course. I hate to leave a job undone, so maybe, if I'm feeling crazy enough, I'll try to talk him into letting me continue to work on it after the course is over and the parts arrive.
Blah blah. Class starts again tomorrow. Hopefully someone has some direction or our instructor thought this over over the weekend and realizes our situation.
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Dunno but I suspect I'll be

You are correct, it is not really in your job description. But the person who goes beyond "their job" is the one who adds the most value to their employer. Those are the ones who get promoted and make top dollar. They also have more job satisfaction because they "get the job done" Unless carping about how nobody else is doing their job gives you pleasure. Somehow I don't think that is your case.
Good luck getting the tranny back together.
Here are a couple of links to help your search
http://www.drivetrain.com/borgwarner_T10.html http://tbtrans.com/t10_transmission.htm
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Indeed. :-)

I am getting better at not complaining but just getting it done. :-)

Ha, GMTA: I spoke to the nice folks at Tbtrans earlier today about a gasket kit and a small parts kit. I visitted the drivetrain.com site several times last week. Great resources.
Update: First I spoke with the instructor about getting these parts. He was polite and seemed also to have given this some thought. I said I thought we'd have to use the 'net, and he agreed. He said to get the darned things overnighted, whipping out his personal credit card, and he'd get reimbursement (at least, being a newbie instructor to the school, he thought he could). So he's into this; bravo for him. Further investigation resulted in our finding out this really could not be done, because the school contracts with certain vendors (for seemingly exorbitant prices, at least compared to TBtrans.com). Blah blah bureaucracy.
The better news: Our lab technicians found a box of miscellaneous snap rings which yielded the ones we needed. The instructor has us using Permatex 'form-a-gasket' for the various mating surfaces that call for new gaskets. We agreed that, if the tranny leaks, no big deal; it will leave something for the next class to fix. Detent balls will be replaced using ball bearings of which the school also has an ample and varied supply.
My teammates got together a good deal of the mainshaft today, me offering only a hand or two, but studying it all and still learning something. (Plus maybe my chipping in on finding solutions for the parts situation and drawings is a meaningful contribution. So I don't feel too bad with minimal hands on participation... )
My teammates do not care to "use the book's instructions," even for general guidance, as much as I, though they used the drawings plenty. I am pretty sure they got the 3/4 clutch sleeve and hub on backwards. We discussed it politely and agreed to do it their way (like there was going to be arguing; not :-) ) and then see what happened. They felt that the mechanical, hands on indications on the shafts etc. were opposite to what my two drawings, one internet site, and statements in the Chilton's manual said (namely, the small end of the taper goes outboard).
As for my original query here on the 1/2 synchronizing hub, we decided to follow the orientation of the 3/4 hub (which we had left still assembled to the sleeve, as I noted earlier): Offset ( = boss) pointing inboard.
Thank you for your input. A little wisdom from the older hands helps the newbies progress more quickly, one way or another, AFAIC.
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Update for the archives: I studied the 1/2 and 3/4 clutches more in the last day or so and got to thinking that maybe placing the shift fork assembly upon them, with everything in "neutral," would yield important information. This was just an undeveloped gut feel, because I didn't understand exactly how the shift fork assembly worked with the 1/2 and 3/4 clutches at the time. So before we got too far today (with the main shaft still sitting outside the casing), I asked the instructor to come over and talk us through the shift forks etc. He immediately puts the shift fork assembly in neutral, locates the two clutch sleeves also in neutral, talking all along, and tries to seat the forks on the clutch sleeves' collars. No fit! He spots the backwards 3/4 clutch sleeve, looks at me, smiles, and says, 'You wanted that turned around, didn't you?' I mumbled something about killing two birds with one stone and smiled back. The group agreed the sleeve etc. would only work with it oriented with the small ends of the two sleeves' tapers outboard.
As for the clutch hubs: It now seems likely that this tranny was dis-assembled at least once since it arrived at the school. So the way it was put together prior to our getting our hands on it was not necessarily correct.
This puts us back to about square one with the hub orientations (boss inboard or outboard?). We'll try it all out before we bolt the cover on and fully assemble it.
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wrote

After it is all said and done I'm certain you will have learned a few valuable lessons. Even though you may now be proficient at rebuilding this particular transmission and will probably never again in all your career have to do another one, you will have at least imprinted many techniques and usable skills for future problems. Good for you. At the risk of sounding prejudice, maybe even good for the instructor too. Successfully rebuilding the transmission is probably not nearly as important as all the collateral knowledge and skills acquired in the process.
--
Kevin Mouton
Automotive Technology Instructor
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Kevin wrote:

There is no teacher like experience. Tips learned on this particular unit will prepare you for others to come. I'm sure your classmates benefitted too. Where's the pics so that we can all learn something...;)
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Believe it or not, from past work on different systems of my car over the years (among other, larger mechanical systems), I do understand what you mean.

I agree. AFAIC, new instructors need to be cut some slack (hopefully they return the favor).

:-) Photos are the least I can do. Snapped some today. See
http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id19.html
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Elle wrote:

Ever heard of these things called digital cameras?
You could capture the disassembly as a sequence of detailed images showing all of the parts as they come off and all their orientation.
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