The Drive-a-Toyota Act

Page 12 of 16  
Mike Hunter wrote:

Actually, this article implies that Toyota developed the technology, and Ford licensed the technology, apparently after working independently. That is not a joint venture. It sounds like Ford and Toyota developed similar technology and crossed licensed the technology to avoid legal problems.
This paragraph supports this idea: "Ford also licensed Toyota hybrids patents after its engineers realized that the system Ford had developed had features similar to ones patented by Toyota. (Honda developed a different hybrid system.)"
http://detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0508/08/A01-272872.htm
These articles also suggest that Ford got it hybrid technology from Toyota, but not in a joint venture:
http://waw.wardsauto.com/ar/auto_toyota_kickstarted_ford / <http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid 000039&sid=azDp8xWV5rsU&refer=columnist_levin>
Ford and Volvo are working together to develop hybrid technology; they opened a new hybrid technology center.
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/07/01/013417.html
Volvo trucks and buses is developing hybrid technology, but Volvo trucks is independent of Ford, AFIK.

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http://www.toyota.com/about/environment/technology/2004/hybrid.html <quote> Is Ford using the Toyota hybrid system?
Although the Ford hybrid system is very similar to Toyota's, Toyota is not directly supplying any components to Ford. Toyota and Ford have entered into a licensing agreement allowing Ford to use technology that had been patented by Toyota. Toyota welcomes the introduction of the Escape hybrid and Ford's effort to demonstrate and gain acceptance of this important environmental technology. </quote>
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So to sum it all up:
yes, Ford licenses Toyota technology.
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On 2007-07-05 12:39:36 -0700, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"

So, what about that, Mike? :-)
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That is only partially correct, Toyota is licensed to use Ford patents, as well. They are cross licensed to the same technology developed jointly with Volvo and a Japanese electronic company, subsequently owned by Toyota.
Check the CAFE Guide and see whose hybrid SUV get the greater mileage ;)
mike

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This statement is a little miss-leading (nothing unusual for Toyota). While it is true that "Toyota is not directly supplying any components to Ford," a company partially owned, and certainly controlled by Toyota, is supplying some of the primary components.
Toyota certainly has patents that cover some aspects of the hybrid system Ford is using. There is nothing usual in companies licensing other companies to use technology that they have patented. Toyota itself has (and does) license technology from other companies. For years all the Toyota automatics depended on technology licensed from Borg-Warner, Ford, GM, Chrysler, etc.
Ed
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A bottom price Prius retails around $22,200. That includes a transmission that you don't shift yourself. So, apples to apples, the cheapest Camry you don't shift yourself retails at $19,520.
Edmunds says the True Market Value for the bottom Prius is $21,300 while the TMV for the bottom Camry is $18,300. Add the mandatory destination charge to both of those.
Both are bottom line cars, and the Prius costs $3000 more, apples to apples. That's 1000 gallons of gas. If the Prius gets 20 more miles per gallon (that's about right), do the math.
Pay me now or pay me later.

Not just on paper--for real. Physics in Japan must be different than physics in Detroit. For whatever reason, the Prius is one huge car inside.

Huh? The Prius is a genuine 5 passenger car. What reference material are you using that shows it as a 4 passenger car? Do you have a web link?

What year Prius are you referring to? The current Prius has great headroom, and isn't narrow in the least. I'm a big guy, and I'm incredibly comfortable inside.

The base Prius for $3000 more will get 20 miles more per gallon, under any condition, than the base auto trans Camry. Do the math.
Real world, I get 45mpg tooling around town in the Prius with the AC on, and 52mpg on the highway with the AC on. This is a company car, and I don't care about saving gas since I don't pay for it, so I just drive it the same way I've driven every car. I make no special effort to drive it in any unusual or special way. On the freeway, it's 70-75mph. With AC on this past week, it gave me 53mpg on a single 6 hour straight freeway drive.
The Camry will give what--33mpg under the same circumstances? So there you have it. And 25 in town. That 20mpg extra that the Prius gives is real world.
If gas is $3/gallon, at 25mpg the fuel cost for the Camry is 12 cents. For the Prius, at 45mpg, it's 6.667 cents. Call it 7 cents. So in town the Prius fuel cost is 5 cents less per mile to operate; that $3000 Prius price premium is recovered in 60000 miles when gas is $3/gallon.
At 53mpg highway for Prius and 33mpg highway for Camry, the fuel cost is 5.66 cents/mile Prius and 9.09 cents/mile Camry. That difference is only 3.43 cents, so to pay off that $3000 Prius premium will cost you right at 70,000 miles.
So the payoff for general driving is somewhere between 60K and 70K miles, real world. Remember, this is from a guy who drives the Prius like any other car, who isn't one of those freakos who drives in weird ways that piss off other people in traffic, playing his dashboard video game, all with the goal of trying to maximize fuel economy and make the number on the video game go higher and higher. Those people should be shot, and at the very least their numbers should be ignored. Real world, the payback starts at between 60K and 70K miles.
Doesn't make a bunch of sense if you don't keep the car for 60K miles, true. But it's there, and it's very real world.
And many people keep a car for 60K miles, or 70K miles, or even more--or do you disagree?

Hmmmmm. Aren't they entirely recyclable? Unlike the fumes that spew into the air.

See above. Do you agree with my 60K/70K miles payback calculation or not? If not, why?

Mine is a company car. My choice at this price level (I pay a flat monthly fee to cover personal use, and it's very small) was between a Prius and a Malibu. Even though I'm not paying a dime for the car or repairs or rentals or anything, and even though I'm a big Honda fan from way back, I'd MUCH rather plant my butt in a Toyota than a GM.
Therefore, even though I've had the car since it had zero miles on the clock, I didn't buy it. I have no obligation to it. If my employment situation changes such that I no longer rate the company car, I give it back. I have no emotional attachment to it whatsoever. You're right--people who buy new cars generally do not go on web forums or the Usenet and say, "Yeah, I wasted $22K, this is a piece of junk." They will lie to themselves and to the world to huge extremes to avoid looking like an idiot for having wasted $22K.
But that's not me. So take the above remarks in the proper context. I'm not talking from emotion, I'm talking from real world actual numbers. Period. It wasn't a non-rational purchase; it wasn't a purchase at all. It's not a long term commitment. It's a tool that's given to me, much like wage-earning workmen are given screwdrivers to do their jobs.

I can't really disagree with anything you said there.

Virtually all other cars are less rational of a purchase than the Prius. With regard to the battery pack: my research shows it to be equivalent to a modern automatic transmission in that it is the weak spot of the car, and *will* need serious attention at some point fairly far down the road. I firmly believe that EVERY modern automatic transmission car on the road today has a $3000 weak spot, so the fact that the Prius has a $3000 weak spot simply makes it just another car on the road.
The difference is, Joe Average and his neighbor can swap out the battery pack with a junkyard unit in a couple of hours. Try doing that with a modern automatic transmission.

Oh God, yes. Your best values are either a 2 year old domestic product or a brand new Japanese product that you keep. That's not a Prius/Focus argument, that's a simple domestic/Japanese argument. It holds true across all models. Has for years.
A used Prius is a stupid idea, at least where the market is now.
If you like swapping cars out every couple of years, buy 2 year old Fords every time. If your comfort level is buying new, buy Japanese and plan on keeping it. Oh, you may be able to sell it in a couple of years for a good price, but not nearly what it's worth as a car to drive.
Cars are expensive. The Prius is no more so than any other car. It may be less so than most if not all other cars, depending.
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MSRP is meaningless. Forget the on line searches and get out in the real world and you will discover with any vehicle purchase, one must compare the "Drive Home Price," not the MSRP or even the selling price, among dealers or brands.
Dealers add all type of fees and other smoke and mirror packages to the cars on their lots and their deals. If there is any rebate, or dealer or factory discounts they will be greater on the conventionally powered car than on any hybrid. The value of ones trade varies from dealer to dealer as well.
mike
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wrote:

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Are you really that slow witted? Of course the dealership can screw you. How do you think you could screw the dealership?
We did not expect you to understand the difference. You have it backwards, the sucker is the ones that will accepts the selling price as what he is paying for the car and does not obtain a "Drive Home Price" which is the total price one pays to drive it home, dummy.
mike

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Really? Retail prices will plummet if it is soon time to buy a battery pack fro thousands of dollars LOL
mike

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Mike Hunter wrote:

That's true. However, there is very little reason to suspect that owners will have to replace battery packs in droves at 100k mi.
So far, there is very little indication that the battery packs will be problematic.
Jeff

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Lets compare apple to apples. The Camry is a bigger car than the Prius.
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On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 13:00:51 -0600, Fred wrote:

You will be interested in this article from the UK
http://tinyurl.com/2szf56
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ending in the usual "... pious condescension." When I find a Prius owner who has an attitude of "pious condescension," then I'll give this article a second look. When a car sells 24K copies in a month, it's really hard to believe that's some lunatic "greenie" fringe buying a car to show off imaginary "green" credentials.
And, as usual, the author of the article remarked that under the new EPA tests, the Prius rating was expected to fall off by 25% or so while he somehow failed to mention that everybody was expected to fall off significantly.
And EPA tests matter not at all to the people I know who have Priuses; they report upper 40's and low 50's all the time. Will new EPA testing reports somehow reduce their actual mileage? Ummm... no.
And, in city traffic, the benefit of recycling your kinetic energy as you stop back into the battery for the next takeoff makes inescapable sense, the only problem being whether or not the car can do this efficiently. Toyota and Honda have managed to do this with a range of trouble-free hybrids and, frankly, it looks like all the heat comes down because everybody else is jealous of that - and the really good sales the Prius has achieved. Nothing else out there approaches the city fuel economy (both the imaginary EPA figures and what people actually achieve) while seating 4 comfortably.
If someone else can build a car that costs less than the Prius, carries 4 people easily, has 400+ mile unrefueled range and gets better fuel economy (especially in the city) while meeting the emissions specifications that the Prius meets, more power to them. At the moment, however, that's exactly nobody.
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