The Drive-a-Toyota Act

Page 6 of 16  

They are, as are mars rovers, battlebots, etc...
Also. many locomotives and self-powered passenger cars (think subway or commuter rail) use one motor per axle. Adding a differential to a one motor per axle road vehicle doesn't seem that difficult.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Bonehenge (B A R R Y) wrote:

Some are. But the biggest isn't.
Here are the specs for the biggest Cat truck:
http://www.cat.com/cda/layout?m7840&x=7
Notice all the forward gears.
I remember when C&D reviewed one. They talked about the steering: Does it understeer? Oversteer? Who knows?
But the engine only develops 3400 HP and 12,000 lb-ft torque.
<http://www.caranddriver.com/specialtyfiles/3629/specialty-file-caterpillar-797-page3.html

Or make it two motors per axle. Then you don't even need the axle (you get independent suspension).
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

This isn't 4WD, but it does 0-60 in 4 seconds, and uses Li-ion batteries: http://www.teslamotors.com/performance/specs.php
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

It's been years since I read C&D. I would swear it was the original Escape design.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

Toyota Highlander Hybrid.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

You mean like diesel locomotives? They've been AWD diesel electric for years (but without the batteries).
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Jul 6, 7:22 pm, "Bonehenge (B A R R Y)"

Look into the Toyota Highlander Hybrid and the Lexus RX 400h, which offer 4WD. It's a newer version of the e-Four design that was on the Estima hybrid.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

Good explanations.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

The issue is really the efficiency *at the time the piece is being used*.
It is INCREDIBLY wasteful and noxious-smelling to run the ICE just to provide idle speed crawling and AC in downtown rush-hour traffic.
If you run the engine at its peak efficiency solely in order to charge the battery, then shut it down and let the battery crawl the car along and run the AC, you've dramatically increased the efficiency of and reduced the waste from the gasoline that went into the system.
An idling engine is very wasteful. Decouple the engine from the things that are required during "idle" time, and shut it down. Voila.
Whenever I'm downtown and end up sitting there in rush hour, I experience this very situation. I crawl through the traffic at "idle" speeds, with AC on, even on hot days, without the internal combustion engine running at all.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
"Elmo P. Shagnasty" om...

scenario. The battery will run down after a while, and then the ICE comes on to provide recharge. This does indeed sap gas, and we have seen our MPG dive under this situation. Tomes
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

The word "dive" needs some context. Resetting the trip meter in my Escape at the start of a crawl, the MPG indicated 99mpg for a few miles, while the engine was stopped. Then it cycled on for 30-45 seconds with no change in the indicated mpg. That cycle repeated a few times, and the MPG dropped to 65MPG over the course of 7 miles. As traffic cleared up, the mileage dropped off to 38 for a 10-12 mile stretch overall.
--
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Oh yeah, one can play games with that reset button and get very odd, statistically insignificant results. It resets itself every time one refills the tank in the Prius, something that used to annoy me, but I have now become used to it.
In this case the dive went from what was about 55 MPG for half a tank down to 49 over a very slow, hot 10 miles or so. Tomes
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I do not know about the NHW10 Prius... The Classic NHW11 Prius (2001-2003 model years) will only reset the Consumption Screen odometer/MPG if you manually hit the Reset button. (I have well over 30,000 miles on my consumption screen odometer at the moment. I keep missing the "roll-over" at the 9999.9 miles mark...) The 2004-2005 NWH20 Prius will reset the Consumption Screen odometer/ MPG at each fillup (more than about 3 gallons) automatically (one full revolution of the wheel?), or if you manually hit the Reset button. The 2006-current NHW20 Prius will only reset the Consumption Screen odometer at each fillup automatically (same conditions as 2004-2005). The Consumption Screen odometer/MPG will reset if you manually hit the Reset button. (The cumulative MPG will only reset if you press the Reset button.)
(The Consumption Screen odometer/MPG may also reset if you disconnect 12v power for a long enough period of time, as well...)
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

"dive". 49/55% drop. That in itself doesn't sound like a dive, and even if it were, 49mpg is still far too good to say "the mileage took a dive" to someone who is only getting 25mpg on a good day, and probably thinks of a dive as dropping to 10mpg.
10 miles weighted against "1/2 a tank". That might suggest that the mileage during that 10 mile stretch was 13mpg. That would be a dive. But my experience over a 10 mile stretch of stop and go would suggest that your example must have been far more stop than go. You might still have gotten phenomenal mileage compared to the Toyota Corolla in the lane next to you over those same ten miles.
--
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
snipped-for-privacy@63.usenet.us.com:

Yep, I agree with all of this. 'Dive' is indeed a relative term. It was noticeable enough for all of us to really take it as a learning point in the car. Cheers, Tomes
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Well, that's what's supposed to happen.
Obviously, your MPG "dives" in that situation--but consider a standard car in that situation, where the engine is ALWAYS running, very inefficiently, solely to allow you to creep along and to drive the air conditioner.
So you can have moments of the ICE running on your hybrid, or you can have the ICE run continuously on a standard car.
The difference is, you had no feedback mechanism on your standard car to tell you what your MPG was. It was incredibly lower. Just do the math.
Had you seen what your actual MPG was in your standard car while you crawled through downtown with the AC on, you'd be furious. But you didn't see any instantaneous feedback on the instant MPG; all you saw was the average for the whole tank the next time you filled up.
Do this: turn off your MPG display for a whole tank, drive like you normally do, then turn it on right before you fill the tank the next time.
You'll be a very happy man.
Or, stare at the MPG display every moment you're in the car, and obssess over an instant number going down to 12mpg or something, and be a very unhappy man.
You can't worry about instantaneous MPG numbers. The whole purpose of the hybrid is that the engine will run as it needs to, which sometimes is very hard. Then it can not run, or barely run. Overall, efficiency is very high compared to a traditional car where the engine is always running no matter what and where the engine must handle the entire range of duties, from off the line to highway cruising, from a very small electrical load to a very large one. No ICE can be as well tuned to handle that range of duties all by itself. Decouple the ICE from the wheels, stick the motor/generators and battery pack in there, and let the software manage it all--you let each piece maximize its efficiency independent of the other pieces and independent of what the driver is asking of the whole system.
Staring at instantaneous MPG numbers while crawling through a hot downtown with the engine suddenly starting in order to charge the battery is like watching your retirement investments minute by minute. You will go crazy watching the downturns, and your euphoria during the radical upturns will be short lived as the system corrects itself.
Watch the average number over a large number of miles.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
"Elmo P. Shagnasty" om...

Yep, I agree with all this. It sounds like you inferred that I was basing this on the instantaneous number, lol. My dive was not watching the instantaneous number. We both have been around the block enough now to understand what you are saying. Instantaneous number is just that, for that moment only, and is used for foot positioning purposes. My dive was in the cumulative number for that tankful, about half a tank at that point. Tomes
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
"Bill Putney" ...

Hi Bill, The thing with the Prius is that it generates more energy than it uses electrically, overall. There is a screen that shows the state of the battery charge at all times. In my Prius, it is near the top most of the time (at maybe ~60-70% of charge [the top being 80% and the bottom being 20%]), and I have seen it near the low point only in rare and special cases (such as using the AC in a traffic jam where regeneration is not happening), It even has a mode where it will just spin the engine (without any gas used) to get rid of excess electricity as waste heat. I have wanted some manner of adjustment to make it use electricity moreso because of this. Tomes
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

It's not even what I call a transmission, although obviously it performs the task of one.
The Toyota Power Split Device is so ingenious partially because of its utter simplicity. It has nothing at all in common with a modern automatic transmission of any kind.
In fact, changing out from a traditional auto transmission to the PSD is enough reason to put the batteries in the middle. From a maintenance standpoint, they've taken out a hugely complex and frail component of the modern drivetrain and replaced it with something much simpler, requiring no maintenance, and incredibly less likely to break.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

CVTs are transmissions.
The PSD is different enough that I would say that it is far more than a CVT.
A far analogy between a PSD and CVT is PSD:CVT::My laptop:DVD player. My laptop has a DVD (and I do watch movies on it), but my laptop does far more.
The analogy is also good, because the laptop eliminates redundant devices, like separate screens for the laptop and DVD and seperate power supplies.

That's true. But neither do CVTs and automatic or manual transmission, except power goes into and power comes out at a different ratio (or the same ratio).

You can also switch to a CVT, which is a really simple device, more simple than a automatic transmission.
Thanks. Your message prompted me to learn more about how the synergy drive works.
Jeff
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Related Threads

    Motorsforum.com is a website by car enthusiasts for car enthusiasts. It is not affiliated with any of the car or spare part manufacturers or car dealers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.