Toyota, GM, and Ford differences

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I'm cross-posting this in alt.autos.gm with the hope that GM will improve its quality of manufacturing and avoid bankruptcy.
The latter half of the following Detroit News excerpt is especially
helpful to GM.
From the Detroit News:
Toyota officials say the key to their system is that it taps the knowledge and insights of their team members.
They also give them a lot of training and responsibility. At Georgetown, or any Toyota plant, any team member has the power to stop the line by pulling what is called an "andon" cord. The term "andon" is derived from the Japanese word for paper lantern.
Once a worker pulls the cord, if the problem is not resolved before the car reaches the next stage of assembly, the line stops.
"It may hurt productivity, but it improves quality," said Brian Walters, J.D. Power research director.
Toyota encourages employees to pull the cord, despite the line stoppages, to expose problems and address them quickly. In Georgetown, workers reach for their cords 2,500 times a shift, and stoppages amount to 6-8 minutes per shift.
But, plant manager Convis said, "at Toyota, it's a problem if you run (the line) at 100 percent. Something isn't adding up, because life isn't (perfect) like that."
For the past year and a half, andon cords have hung along the assembly lines at GM's Oshawa plant. But the concept can get muddled in translation.
"We used to get 17 andon pulls per day," said Rod McVeigh, a supervisor in the assembly plant. "We're now targeting six a day."
But that might encourage workers to look out less for glitches.
Dennis Pawley, Chrysler's former manufacturing chief and now a consultant teaching Japanese manufacturing methods, says of the Big Three: "They don't understand that they don't understand."
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Toyota could never put GM out of business. There are too many proud americans that buy GMs in some form..

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Never say Never. Lots of proud Americans are buying Japanese. Especially when they find out their Japanese trucks are made in the U.S., while their American ones are actually made in Canada or Mexico.
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The only Toyota truck made in the US is their small truck that is assembled in the GM/Toyota plant in California. GM, Ford and Dodge make the vast majority of the trucks they sell in the US, in the US of American parts.
mike hunt

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tundras are made in texas....
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Perhaps where you live the may come from the new plant, but I didn't know that plant was in production yet. The ones I see on the east coast are assemble in Indiana and show a '5.'
mike hunt

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Hum Bullshit!
Currently Daimler Chrysler assembles all of their Dodge RAM trucks in Mexico. The so called new "Hemi" engine is also assembled in Mexico...
Would you care to check your facts and maybe restate your position?

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wrote:

True. It will be GM that puts GM out of business.
Merritt
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Merritt Mullen wrote:

you guys ever been to Thailand and saw the amount of toyotas and stuff there in Asia.? The Japaneese car industry outflanks the Americans buy milesa and miles Thers 65,ooo,ooo people in thailand alone and they dont buy fords there or gm hahah
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Is this thread still going? Sheesh.
Let's just acknowledge that Deming's principles of Total Quality Management have worked well for Toyota and Honda. Let's also acknowledge that a small engineering budget will affect a business that is heavily reliant upon continuous engineering improvement (Mercedes is presently coming to terms with this).
Yes Toyoyo's are the best vehicles ever, all American vehicles are crap. Are we happy now?
Let this thread die already................
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Adam wrote:

But GM could.

Why? GM has no pride in America or Americans and hasn't created even one new net job in the U.S. in 20-30 years.
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Adam wrote:

I agree, Adam. Only GM could put GM out of business--more specifically GM management.
And as a proud American, let me say that GM management is coming awfully close with a Total Debt to Equity ratio of a whopping 12 to 1.
The way for GM Management to cut down the company's huge, huge 278 billion dollars of debt is to improve quality.
Whaddya say we make tomorrow "Andon Pulling Day!" Everybody at Oshawa, pull that Andon tomorrow and teach Management they need to pay attention to quality, not just give it lip service.
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Our family Owns GM cars and trucks (as well as several Toyotas) so I don't want to see GM go under - it's bad for parts availability. But they're trying to set a lower target for Quality related line stops? What madness is this?
GM is going to put GM out of business all by themselves, simply through pure Dumbth. The troubles that Delphi is going through right now should be recognized as GM's "Canary in a Coal Mine", their 'Clue Phone' ringing.
If there's a problem with a car, you stop the line and try to fix it on the line, before giving up and flagging it for an expensive trip to the rework shop. And then you have to analyze what went wrong, and devise a solution to keep it from happening again.
They're about to go under if from no other reason than the sweetheart contracts the UAW has squeezed out of them.
Maintenance workers "Job Banked" and sitting around half the year, only working when the lines go down for change-overs or emergencies. Find them something useful to do the rest of the time, like the regular maintenance work at the offices and factories. Form a contracting division, and hire them out locally. Or schedule your line change-overs better - schedule the work staggered through the year, and have a traveling crew rotate between the plants. Hotel rooms per-diem and transportation for the workers has to be cheaper than "Job Bank".
I predict the only way for GM to remain viable is to go Bankrupt and destroy a bunch of investors and retirees who thought that GM stock was a bedrock. Default on all the under-funded pensions and toss them to the Federal Benefit Guarantee insurance which will destroy all the GM retirees, toss the other retiree benefits like Medical. Rework the current labor contracts to reflect reality. And slash their offerings in the marketplace (toss a nameplate or two overboard) which will destroy a bunch of dealerships. There's no clean way to do this.
And if they don't really get the idea on Quality, and fast, even that won't save them. The Domestic makers - GM, Ford and Daimler Chrysler - have gotten far better at building solid cars in the last 10 to 15 years, but they simply can't hold a candle to Toyota or the other Asian marques, where Quality is not just a buzzword.
If you don't build cars that people want to buy, it's not the buyers' fault. The SSR and some newer offerings look interesting, but they might be too little, too late.
If you lose money on every car, you can't "make it up on volume". And they were trying to make it all by building lots of high-margin SUV's and Trucks - till gas prices spiked and that market died.
--<< Bruce >>-- Posted from a.a.Toyota
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
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Another idiot that thinks Jap scrap is better quality. For your info they are no better than anyone else in quality. I was a mechanic at a jap dealer and they line up for repairs just as much as a domestic dealer.
wrote:

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Why would anyone take the word of a top-poster? Learn how to post properly and people will give you more respect.
cordially, as always,
rm
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I really don't think it's the quality difference that's hurting them as much as their crappy car lineup and union agreements.
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The data I have seen would indicate Toyota and Honda to have in the order of a half percent problems, Volkswagen about twice that, and some GM models in between. Doesn't seem like much, but they also don't tell much about how these data were obtained and how well the problems were resolved by the manufacturer. The dissatisfaction with GM and Ford seems to go deeper than just this statistic.
But I'll agree that the car lineup has not endeared itself to many in the USA, and the union agreements (a parameter related to poor management practices as well) seem to drain the lifeforce from these companies.
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At the moment GM & Ford's lineups suck. They are trying to make something that isn't American. Economy cars are something that the Japanese do extremely well (good for poor people). Europeans make cars that are wonderfully built for narrow substandard roads (but if you think American cars are unreliable as they age you should look at BMW electronics and auto transmissions as they age......).
GM & Ford do fairly well with their cars produced in Canada (Gov't health care lightens the retirement millstone around their neck).
Ford and GM for some reason continue avoiding building what Americans want and love. Big, Powerful, Safe & Reliable cars. Instead we're relegated to buying trucks to get what we want. Most amazing of all the "never say die" Bankruptcy king Chrysler is leading the way. 300, Magnum, Charger, etc. One would think that with Ford's success in the new Mustang they could see what needs to be done but.....
Don't count the Big 3 out, just recall how Ford turned around in the 1990's.
PS When the Police and Cabbies start driving Toyota's and Suzuki's I'll begin to accept that Japanese quality extends beyond "initial quality".
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Several years ago the NYC Taxi Commission permitted a three year test to judge FWD cars and minivans for suitability as taxis in the city. Taxi companies bought domestic and foreign brands for use as taxis, hoping to same money. Within three months they were showing up in repair shops. Within two years nearly 90% had been taken out of service. At the end of the test only RWD vehicles were allowed to be use as Taxis in NYC..
The average NYC CV Taxi has on 300,000,000 miles on the clock and some are run up to a million miles before being replaced. Many actually start out as former police vehicles..When I still owned my fleet service business Ford had around 80% of the corporate fleet business on the east cost. Our meticulous maintenance records over many years showed that Ford vehicles were the most cost effect to own, long term, based on the cost of acquisition, insurance, maintenance, repair, parts and vehicle replacement costs. No other manufacture even came close in that regard. I was that experience that led me to switch for Lexus V8s I had been buying to the Lincoln LS V8 in 1999. The kicker was I saved nearly enough money switching that I was able to buy my first in a series of Mustang GT convertibles ;)
mike hunt
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Hi Mike,
The problem is that most of us don't care if a car can go a million miles if you keep on replacing parts. Most of us just want cars that will go 100,000 miles without replacing any parts. That is why the imports are winning.
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