transponder key situation, but no key: Ford Explorer

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On Wed, 01 Mar 2006 11:54:28 -0500, you wrote:

FORDS REQUIRE starting in 2000 for most models, this programming tool to access the on board computer to add new keys WHEN the keys are LOST>. no way around it..
GM keys that HAVE a transponder do NOT require the hand held device to be plugged in in order to add keys when they are lost and new are cut.. BUT it takes 'longer time'..

CHRYSLER requires a PHONE CALL TO CHRYSLER there is a 'pin number for the on board computer to ACCESS IT, with the hand held programming tool needed in ADDITION..

the tool need..
my local Ford deealer had to buy a new diagnostic tool in December.. it will also program new keys into the system.. tool is $12,000 PLUS $1,000 a MONTH to update it..
--Shiva--
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wrote:

OK I follow you completely. wasn't there a law passed meaning the OEMs had to expose such codes to the aftermarket industry. Im surprised they can do this, or were they only coerced to release the OBDII info publicly?
--
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On Wed, 01 Mar 2006 20:51:06 -0500, you wrote:

GM's cost a shy 3 grand.. another that will do several vehicles, is about $7,000, plus required updates-about $2 a day..
some are NOT available at all- the transponders are 'hard wired' onto the on board computer..replace computer and comes with 2 new keys.. (ask the price..LOL) --Shiva--
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wrote:

You can get the Actron code readers from autozone and probably amazon from about $99 - $300.

Well the physical transponder is in the key. The board only has an antenna. But some older systems forgot to create a way to get the secret code out of the car's module. So if the car's module dies, then the keys are thrown out. Newer systems store the code and can retrieve it so you can program a new car module to an existing set of keys.
Note: The car's module has a private number, but the key also keeps its own private number. They authenticate each other. So a key will not reveal its private number unless the module reveals its first.
--
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On Thu, 02 Mar 2006 09:15:14 -0500, you wrote:

and??? that tells you whats WRONG with the car-wont allow you to do the heavy stuff. reprogram a part, or add keys when lost.. those are just the simple diagnostic tool.

and the newer ones, the FIRST thing is erase the existing keys., and then reload from scratch.

whats stored,, then the car starts.. --Shiva--
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wrote:

type RFID chips take a look here for an interesting overveiw http://rfidanalysis.org /.
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wrote:

Well you will never be able to reprogram a part. Thats recall type of stuff only the Dealer will do. But OBDII does allow more than just reading codes. You can manipulate some parts. its diagnostics, not just code reader, though you pay more for the one tha tcan manipulate than you do for the one that just reads.

No. Its two way. Older resistive system was one way. Newer RFID system is two way. And its encrypted. Keyless Entry is one way, and it suffers from the record-playback attack since you can make it transmit its secret code just by pushing the button. But you cant get RFID to give out its secret code just by asking.
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Maybe*, but you can reprogram a PCM/TCM/BCM/GEM modules, etc. (* I'm pretty sure that water pumps and wheel bearings are out)

Hogwash. Buy a passthru device or the factory scan tool, buy a subscription for the data and have at it.

You mean like "steak costs more than hamburger?"
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Neil Nelson wrote:

Not sure what you mean by 'reprogram.' Perhaps you can alter some of the configuration data changing performance and characteristics. But you can not alter the software. That requires encrypted codes only the OEM has and the Dealershp has. I'm not aware of any way around this. I can't imagine the OEM would give out these codes either.
I think its just misunderstanding. You are probably just changing values in ROM, eventhough they may advertise it as 'reprogramming.' Which I suppose you could call it. But to me its not since I work for automotive company and when Ford says to me reprogram they are talking about changing softare not values.

yea, your talking about changing ROM values. Its OEM objective that even in recall all they need to do is change ROM values. But true reprogramming comes when something is wrong with the software and the whole program needs changing. Today most OEMs require that ability out of their modules.

Sure.
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All I can see from this thread is that some people are mistaking the code readers like Actron's ( which are diagnostic tools for the systems of the car controlled by the computer (module)), with a factory or aftermarket scan/programming tool for scanning / programming. The factory tool does "everything", engine management, computer diagnostics, key management, etc. As 'Key would say, just my 2cents. Wayne
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I think the confusion stems from the mis-use of terminology. or, the spelling if the word :-)
just my2 g'day all
--
"Key"

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Not 'some people,' just dnoyeB.
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wayne c wrote:

The Factory tool does a lot more than you think. 1. Reads fault codes 2. writes fault codes (erase) 3. Manipulating components like turning on or off EGR, etc. 4. Manipulate vehicle configuration like turning on one touch down windows. Also disabling certain fault codes that may be setting improperly.
5. Changing the underlying software of the module.
Basic Actron can do 1 and 2. Higher model actron can do 3.
These aftermarket scan/programming tools perhaps can do 1,2, and 3. And some of 4 as they discover the commands.
Only the OEM does 5. I don't even think the Dealership does 5. Key management would fall under 4 which the dealership can do.
To a programmer like myself its not reprogramming unless you change the program, not the values the program is reading/writing. But to others its reprogramming if you do anything to cause it to behave differently. So be it.
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So, you're saying that it's not reprogramming when just part of the program is changed, only all of the program.
And if a module is sold with no programming what-so-ever, it's not really reprogramming because there was no program to begin with even though the whole program needs to be installed before the module will function.
Which automotive company is it that you work for??
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Neil Nelson wrote:

Some code is executable and some is data. If you change what is executable I call that reprogramming. Else I call it reconfiguring. Fault codes and feature enable/disable is stored as data.

A module can't function without a program. If you can communicate with it, it has software in it that is running. Its like having a computer without an OS. Well its not LIKE it, it IS it.

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So, you've examined every possible re-flash out there and determined that not a single one of them contains (in your words) an 'executable?"

Really? So how do they load any programming to begin with?

Well?
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Neil Nelson wrote:

're-flash' refers to FlashROM. If you are changing the FlashROM then 99% of the time you are what I call reprogramming or changing the executable. We can create programs that store data in FlashROM, but Flash was meant to be written to a limited number of times. OEM generally will not allow us to use FlashROM for non-static data.

There is a small piece of code that is always there and is not changeable. Generally called the BIOS. Its built into the hardware. One of its purposes is to enable you to store a program that will later run.

I certainly will not be saying. With as much as I talk about here the lawyers would have fun making themselves 'usefull.' Not that I give out secret info. But you never know what folks will try to claim is secret these days. Its an American Company.
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So, it is re-programming.

Considering that you've been talking in circles, that is probably a wise choice.
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I can't believe I wasted this much time talking to a troll that has not a single positive/usefull thing to say.
--
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GM does have a tool. the dealers use it all the time. GM also has on-board programing..

wrong, GM/Ford/Chrysler do NOT all use transponder tegnology.
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