transponder key situation, but no key: Ford Explorer

we are on the same page. believe the terminology being used is causing misunderstandings. GM uses pk3 system and Magamos fixed code system. vats system as late as 2004. if an anti theft system is used at all ?

Reply to
'Key
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sounds like ya may have gotten a clone key made. just cutting any transponder key would not work. it would have to be programmed.

Reply to
'Key

With this vehicle, there's more to it than just cutting the metal of the key. There are some vendors on eBay

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sell blank transponder keys, but in addition to the cutting, thechip still has to be dealt with. Are you sure it was a transponder key you duplicated? (And you realize I'm starting with zero copies, don't you?) Everybody I've consulted with locally believes only a Ford dealer has the equipment.

But if this hardware store can somehow do the job, I'd like to talk with them - even if they're not local. What's the name or number of the hardware store you used, please?

Reply to
nehmo54

EARLY Ford transponder keys had 2 things CLEARLY VISIBLE..

1 is the hole that you use to hang on a key chain..

the hole is NOT IN THE CENTER.. it was off to one side.. the key head was about 1/4" THICK, and if you looked on the back plastic edge opposite of the ring hole, you would see the faint outline of a small rectangular square there.. the cover for the transponder..

NEW model transponder blanks have the hole back in the center, and NO visible means of seeing where the actual chip is..you got to know then by the actual model..

and 'some locksmiths' DO have the equipment..

funny thing in MY area the Chrysler dealerships will NOT mess with the transponder equipped cars as far as replacing lost keys-they ship them out to a certain locksmith about 15 miles from me..

--Shiva--

Reply to
<>

Sounds like a 56-bit binary key (number), not a frequency operated thing. Just a hunch.

Reply to
clifto

You can get the Actron code readers from autozone and probably amazon from about $99 - $300.

Well the physical transponder is in the key. The board only has an antenna. But some older systems forgot to create a way to get the secret code out of the car's module. So if the car's module dies, then the keys are thrown out. Newer systems store the code and can retrieve it so you can program a new car module to an existing set of keys.

Note: The car's module has a private number, but the key also keeps its own private number. They authenticate each other. So a key will not reveal its private number unless the module reveals its first.

Reply to
dnoyeB

whats a transponder... sonar?

electrical oil bouncces a signal into the key head, the chip charges its battery and answers back what it is.. same thing as what Walmart is trying to get done.. RFID.

--Shiva--

Reply to
<>

Yea Im confused. I dont know all of terminology. I thought PATs was a general term for a passive anti theft system and passkey was GMs term. I always called it PK3 or passkey.

Reply to
dnoyeB

and??? that tells you whats WRONG with the car-wont allow you to do the heavy stuff. reprogram a part, or add keys when lost.. those are just the simple diagnostic tool.

never seen a module die yet.. and the newer ones, the FIRST thing is erase the existing keys., and then reload from scratch.

-

think its a one way thing.. key send its code-and if it matches whats stored,, then the car starts.. --Shiva--

Reply to
<>

TI make both simple "electronic bar code" and challenge-response type RFID chips take a look here for an interesting overveiw

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Reply to
Roger_Nickel

Well you will never be able to reprogram a part. Thats recall type of stuff only the Dealer will do. But OBDII does allow more than just reading codes. You can manipulate some parts. its diagnostics, not just code reader, though you pay more for the one tha tcan manipulate than you do for the one that just reads.

No. Its two way. Older resistive system was one way. Newer RFID system is two way. And its encrypted. Keyless Entry is one way, and it suffers from the record-playback attack since you can make it transmit its secret code just by pushing the button. But you cant get RFID to give out its secret code just by asking.

Reply to
dnoyeB

Same thing that has been used for 'tagging' wild animals for years.

Reply to
dnoyeB

Maybe*, but you can reprogram a PCM/TCM/BCM/GEM modules, etc. (* I'm pretty sure that water pumps and wheel bearings are out)

Hogwash. Buy a passthru device or the factory scan tool, buy a subscription for the data and have at it.

You mean like "steak costs more than hamburger?"

Reply to
Neil Nelson

Not sure what you mean by 'reprogram.' Perhaps you can alter some of the configuration data changing performance and characteristics. But you can not alter the software. That requires encrypted codes only the OEM has and the Dealershp has. I'm not aware of any way around this. I can't imagine the OEM would give out these codes either.

I think its just misunderstanding. You are probably just changing values in ROM, eventhough they may advertise it as 'reprogramming.' Which I suppose you could call it. But to me its not since I work for automotive company and when Ford says to me reprogram they are talking about changing softare not values.

yea, your talking about changing ROM values. Its OEM objective that even in recall all they need to do is change ROM values. But true reprogramming comes when something is wrong with the software and the whole program needs changing. Today most OEMs require that ability out of their modules.

Sure.

Reply to
dnoyeB

Reply to
wayne c

I think the confusion stems from the mis-use of terminology. or, the spelling if the word :-)

just my2¢ g'day all

Reply to
'Key

So, you're saying that it's not reprogramming when just part of the program is changed, only all of the program.

And if a module is sold with no programming what-so-ever, it's not really reprogramming because there was no program to begin with even though the whole program needs to be installed before the module will function.

Which automotive company is it that you work for??

Reply to
Neil Nelson

Not 'some people,' just dnoyeB.

Reply to
Neil Nelson

Some code is executable and some is data. If you change what is executable I call that reprogramming. Else I call it reconfiguring. Fault codes and feature enable/disable is stored as data.

A module can't function without a program. If you can communicate with it, it has software in it that is running. Its like having a computer without an OS. Well its not LIKE it, it IS it.

Reply to
dnoyeB

The Factory tool does a lot more than you think.

  1. Reads fault codes
  2. writes fault codes (erase)
  3. Manipulating components like turning on or off EGR, etc.
  4. Manipulate vehicle configuration like turning on one touch down windows. Also disabling certain fault codes that may be setting improperly.

  1. Changing the underlying software of the module.

Basic Actron can do 1 and 2. Higher model actron can do 3.

These aftermarket scan/programming tools perhaps can do 1,2, and 3. And some of 4 as they discover the commands.

Only the OEM does 5. I don't even think the Dealership does 5. Key management would fall under 4 which the dealership can do.

To a programmer like myself its not reprogramming unless you change the program, not the values the program is reading/writing. But to others its reprogramming if you do anything to cause it to behave differently. So be it.

Reply to
dnoyeB

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