Want to choose discrete options, not packages

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Like a model 'T?'
mike


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Bullcrap. I want two options on a Buick Lucerne, but each comes in a package. Try to get just the remote starter. Or just heated, but not 8 way seats.
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Edwin,
You've run into what I call "the tyranny of the wiring harness" :)) GM didn't want to make 2 more wiring harnesses for the seats - one of the 8-way adjuster w/o the heated seats and one with both. Since the 8-way seats is the more complex, they put the wires for the heated seats in that harness. Soooooo, you get stuck with both.
Saves GM money, even if it cost you. The manufacturers could eliminate a lot of that if they went to logic-level control (called "multiplex wiring") but I think they are afraid of the complexity servicing such a system involves (look at the wiring diagrams for a Cadillac Allante if you want an example). Multiplex wiring could eliminate half the wiring in the average car if it were done correctly (and probably 50~100 lbs of weight) but without the proper training and equipment it would be damn near impossible to troubleshoot problems.
Regards, Bill Bowen Sacramento, CA
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Every manufacture could build a base no frills car. if the wanted. The only reason they do not is because nobody would buy such a vehicle. Evan manual transmission cars sell poorly. The best selling model, in most every brand, is generally the one with the most standard equipment or the one just below it.
mike hunt

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The harness makes sense, but what does it cost? Adding an extra $20 for the more complex harness, even if all is not all used, is better than paying for a $300 or $500 option that I don't want.
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Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

But, using your hypothetical numbers, if less than 1 in 20 people pay money for that, let's say, $400 option, then you were subsidized by everyone else, and the bottom line of the company is damaged either by absorbing the cost difference *OR* raising their price and putting themselves at a price-competitive disadvantage to appease you, Mr. One-In-Less-Than-20.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
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Not quite. The only time the more expensive harness is used, is when either option A or option B is chosen. If no option, or options C, D, or whatever is chosen, the standard harness is used. What happens is that when I choose that $390 option, it becomes $400 as a stand alone to pay for that premium harness. If I choose both A and B, I come out ahead 10 bucks. Or GM" does depending on how they price. Better than having to pay $800 for an option I don't want.
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You might want to take a look at the Lincoln Zephyr. Heated seats are standard and remote starter is a dealer installed $400 option.
mike hunt

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I may take a serious look at that and the Milan. You get the same major features in the Merc for about $4k less.
I just spent another $846 on the Buick yesterday and I'm even less enchanted with Buick right now. That makes $3700 in the past five months. Guess I should have dumped it 5 1/2 months ago.
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enchanted
What did you have done to it Edwin?
--

-Mike-
snipped-for-privacy@alltel.net
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Big expense was the transmission at $2600. The spark plugs ($48 plus labor, + $10 for a wire that broke in the process) is a normal wear item. I don't mind that. A front wheel bearing was shot. No, you don't replace the $10 bearing, but a $311 hub assembly that includes two casting, bearing ABS sensor, spline, all of which are still good. Front rotors that were warped in less than 50k miles and cannot be turned, and an oxygen sensor for $111.
Rotors are made cheaply to save weight but do not last like older ones. After replacing the O2 sensor and plugs, fuel mileage is still the same so I see not real benefit. The air pump is making some noise when cold. That will be about $50 if it does go too.
NOT done are the rear window lift (I have it propped closed with wood) and the heated seat. Instead of replacing the $15 heating element, they want $570 for a new seat bottom.
Just adds up to a lot of stuff over the past couple of years. Maybe other cars are crap too, but this does not seem to be as well made as it could be and parts are now very expensive assemblies to be replaced. . I have more repairs in this than my last three cars combined, and less miles than they had. Now 113k in five years.
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labor,
don't
warped
$111.
Man - I hate to say it Edwin but they gouged you on the bearing job. OEM price is under $200 (can't remember exact price because it's been a while since I bought an OEM hub) and aftermarket hovers right around $110-$120. They should not have hit you more than one hour for labor. Seems quite high on that particular repair. The tranny seems high to me given that an independent tranny specialist around here will do a complete rebuild on a tranny like yours for between $1500 and $1800 on average. But - location is everything. You're in CT right? That might account for some of the price difference.

I
Yeah - I've found plugs to perform well up to 100,000 miles or so in an otherwise well running motor these days. The difference in performance that I've seen by changing the plugs at 100,000 has not been very significant. As much of a pain as it can be to reach those rear three plugs, I count that as a good thing.

Both of these would really "pee" mee right off as well. Rear window lifts in particular. Enough cars have had problems with these over the years that there is just no excuse now for engineering one that does not work 100% of the time for 10 years or more.

be
more
I've learned to accept that front wheel bearings go fast in front wheel drive cars. It's just the way it is with almost all of them. But... the amount of flat out broken things you've described would not set well with me either. Heated seats are not rocket science. There is no excuse today for them to fail like they do and to see replacement costs like we see.
By the way - what color did you paint that piece of cherry that is propping the rear window?
--

-Mike-
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Mike Marlow wrote:

Ain't that the truth!
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
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I've seen aftermarket for $100 to $200. Not so easy to shop around when the car is up on the lift though. Labor was hard to say because I had other work done. Changed the rotors at the same time.

My Regal windows still work after 15 years. What got me was the fact that it is a rear window. It has probably been down a total of 6 times since I've had the car. If they were solid, it would not bother me because we don't have passengers often and the climate control is on most all the time. I accidently hit the button while driving and the window went part way down. Hit the button to bring it back up and it snapped the cable.

Stained it to look like pine ;)
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I think we have all shared that feeling from time to time. No matter what make or model you are considering, you may not be able to get exactly what you want from the factory, at least not at a price that pleases.
I don't like, for example, some of the electronic gadgetry that many models offer. We have used Buicks for years, and in general they are pretty good, but their fascination with electrical geegaws can be troublesome.
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Do that include the engine control microprocessor? ;)
mike hunt

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By my definition, it would not. A geegaw is a bullshit item that is not essential to the operation of the vehicle.
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Like fuel injection or an automatic tranny?
mike

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Maybe on your cars, Mike.
I don't need or want a heated washer fluid system , a heated mirror, a time delay interior and exterior lighting scheme, etc...
I dont need power seat belt retractors, nor an automated Tampax remover in my car.
Believe it or not, I am still strong enough to adjust my own seat manually, and even whip the occasional smartass in the parking lot. The latter just takes a little longer now than it used to do.
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Who is taking about 'need?' Who needs a navigation system? Buyers buy what they want LOL
mike hunt
mike hunt

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