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Not all bad, not every kid has the capacity to go on. why pretend they are all the same and throw money at the low achievers and leave the smarter ones to be bored, focus on the kids that will lead the development of the sciences, instead of the lower end. The world is not fair, go for the best. KB
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Every kid has the capacity to go on.

That is not the problem. All the kids are smart, or a better word intelligent. That is the ability to learn, which all kids have the ability. The problem today IS the teaching methods, something ( teaching ) that was left out of modern schools long ago. Look at the average "college grad", the ability of detective reasoning is all but gone. If the problem can not be defined by a code or symptom chart the average college grad is lost. Ever come across the phrase "so smart he is stupid"? "Book smart street stupid"?

Define "lower end".

No it's not, it never has been.

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We will have to disagree here. all kids are not able to go on. It is obvious kids mental capacity varies greatly, and instead of focusing on the bottom 1/3 lets help the top 1/3 do better. It will help all of socitiy not just each kid. The slower kids will not find the cure for cancer, the top ones will. I did not say ignore the bottom 1/3, just don`t throw massive amounts of money at them and think they will be equal, in history past they were put to manual jobs that needed doing, not everyone is capeable of being a doctor, ect. KB

I will agree here. the teaching methods really stink now. KB

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No we do not have too.

Are you raciest as well?

So manual jobs are only for "slow" people? Only "slow" people should be working on things that can impact your life in a big way?

Damn good thing.

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o we do not have too.
snip

Thats interesting, where do you get raceism from this???????? The fact that everyone is not mentally the same ability has nothing to do with skin color. looks like your reasoning ability has reached the edge if you have to resourt to the racist card for a factual item argument. KB

no it is the place where in history they served a good, valuable, and necessary place in socitiety. They were paid according to there worth, not slave wages either. They were accepted into the world at a level that was necessary and ok, not harped over and wasted vast amounts of resourses to be brought up to just average. KB

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I figured that by your bigoted ideals that you would be, they tend to go hand in hand. I see noting factual in your statements. I see very bigoted statements.

Ok all slow people to the back of the bus!

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You do not see any bigoted statements, only reality. Also you miss the point, we now are spending huge amounts of money to just try to bring everyone up to average, not everyone is average. Why not put some energy into makeing the best better. That is what historically has happened. the most emphas was placed on the best, not ignore the others, it is not a either or situtation. When has anything been made better by concenterating on the worst instead of the best. KB

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Well, Archie, you really cleared that up. So tell us, just what level of achievement do you decided what is teachable or not? Define what you call "slow" or what ever term you use to describe what you call not good enough, bottom?

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I guess I will give up on this thread, off topic anyway, you are not thinking this out, I have never said to quit teaching anyone, just put the extra $ and time into the best acheavers not the lowest, it has nothing to do with race or money or anything else. extra emphasis on the top 1/3 will pay dividends and wasting money concentrating on the bottom 1/3 will do nothing. KB

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<snip> >>

You mean you have no answer. What do you call a high achiever? What is the bottom 1/3? Why would there be a cost difference? Seems to me you have bought into the myth of too large a class room over worked teacher crap.
<snip>
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R. J. Talley
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Oh please. The work load is not even close to what you are trying to make it out to be. Use your own formula. A two page paper per week, not day. The papers tend to be graded at a later date, not the same day. So that extra 12 hours works to just over 2 hours a day, and that is only if ( which by experience I know is not true ) the instructor is doing all that you say is being done. The fact is, that two page paper is required more on a monthly basis. That should be prep time for the days class, being the same subject for each period you do that once. Instructors do not call parents today, unless the child has gotten so out of hand and has caused a big enough problem the instructor can not hide his/her head in the sand any more and ignore the problem child.
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Well, I work at a Catholic high school and we do call parents and parents call us. In fact, we have a regularly scheduled academic and discipline review where we review student's progress and status. In addition, we post each student's grade in progress (an open gradebook complete with all assignments) on our school internet where parents with a proper code word can access them. this generates a lot of email! As to the other point, I do assign a two page paper once a week in each of my 5 classes. I average 28 students per class. I also teach two AP classes (part of the 5) and that really adds on the work. Teachers who do it correctly work at lot more than those who do not. I also field nightly questions over the school's web site and we host a one night a week on-line bulletin board. This past weekend I spent most of Sunday working with my students on a project we are doing outside of class.
The extra twelve hours are in fact, spread out over a three day period. I also grade twice weekly homework, quizzes and tests all of which are in addition to the papers I mentioned. I work my ass off, as do all of the other first rate teachers I know of. If I had a nickel for every lunch hour I've spent with a kid who as a problem, or every day I stayed until way after 4:30 (my teaching day begins at 7:30) I'd be a rich man. Teaching, good teaching, takes time. Adding more students to the classroom without adding more time will decrease the effectiveness of the teaching every time.
I have two preps presently, AP history, and US History reg. I have had up to three in past years. The 10 minutes is what it takes to get ready for each class. The over all lesson planning takes additional time. You must have known some third-rate teachers if your info is at all based on experience. It's like anything else in life, if you deal with hacks you get shoddy results. Deal with a pro and you get craftsmanship...and that takes time as well as talent.
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No, we are spending huge amounts of money to help each person reach his potential.

Good point. Look at all the kids out there who could use good mentors, can't afford college, or never had anyone tell them that they had potential outside the ghetto.

No. Historically, the emphasis has been placed on the kids with money. The ones without, have been ignored. There are a few lucky kids who don't have money who had the encouragement from parents, teachers or mentors to go to college (Ben Carson, a guy who opens people's heads for surgery is an example), but it comes down to money that people have, not talent.

Gee, look what the Army did in WWII when it accepted just about any boy who walked through the doors. Most of the soldiers were average.
Jeff
KB

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wrote in message (...)

No we are not, we are throwing vast amounts of money to help the challenged, not to encourege the overacheavers. The overacheavers are pretty much ignored because they are ok already.

as a side note, money with out talent does nothing. Why are you vindictive of people who have worked hard and got money. The fact they spend it on there kids to acheve and learn more is good. the fact everyone does not have that advantage is not a deploreable thing. (as long as they are not intenctionally held down) It is natural, anything else is communism. Reward the best, dont punish the rest. KB

This has nothing to do with the argument even!!!!! whats your point here?

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Spending vast amount where?

Those people spend that money in private schools, which means nothing to the public school system. Bush is a good example of Daddy having wealth and power. He dodged war, was given companies to ruin, barely made it through college........spend money on the top end........produce a tax system that does just that, hold back the disadvantaged by design ( that would be holding back the disadvantaged intentionally ) all the while presented as fair.

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(...)

Why not help all the kids do better?

Helping all the kids do better will help all kids.

The bottom ones will be more productive at whatever each one does.

I think the proportion of kids who go on to college is over 50%. I think every kid who is capable of going to college deserves a chance. And those who are not capable of going to college or not interested still deserve a good education in elementary school and high school.
Jeff

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