Brake shake with freshly machined rotors?

Page 4 of 7  


One of the problems, I think, is that the client and the mechanic don't take the time to even briefly discuss the problem and what is expected. That could save a lot of hard feelings.
I have seen it too many times...clients dont know anything about mechanical issues, and mechanics dont want to waste their time talking to the client.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

If you are paying for the work they should do what you ask. Warranty work though, is a different matter. The car maker is paying for the work and he will want it fixed according to the diagnosis of his trained mechanic, not some rube off the street that has not looked under the hood since 1962.
That said, after 3 visits to my Buick dealer for an AC repair, I told them what to do. They stood firm at first and said "evaporator coils never leak". Then they took ten minutes to check it. Then they ordered the coil.
Smart shops will listen to the customer and possibly even start the repair, then show the customer what the real problem is and how they can fix it.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I didn't specify a repair, I described the symptoms, and said something like "it feels like the rotors may be warped." I agree with your point, don't diagnose something for the wrench unless you are 100% sure that you are right.

And that's what I believe happened, except for the fact that the problem was not fixed. However, a visual inspection shows that they did in fact do what in my mind should have most likely rectified the problem, at least temporarily, but it did not.
If it's tires, I'm just going to have to live with it... like I said this is a company car and while I am trying to take good care of this one a) I can't afford for it to be in a shop for a lengthy period of time and b) things like new tires, brakes, etc. for non-worn-out components would come out of my own pocket because there's no way in hell the fleet people would pay for it.
in fact, I'm surprised that they've paid for the alignment, wheel balance, tire rotation, and now this latest messing with the brakes, which I've all requested since I got the car 4K miles ago. However the car drives so much better now that all that's been done that I feel pretty confident in saying that it's better to have done it early than not. (and why should a car need alignment at 14K-ish miles, when I first got it? I don't know, but it did.)
nate
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
And that's what I believe happened, except for the fact that the problem was not fixed. However, a visual inspection shows that they did in fact do what in my mind should have most likely rectified the problem, at least temporarily, but it did not. *******************
Read the Babcox site. Just machining the rotors is not always the total cure, especially if they are machined off the car.
And if the technician were pressed (as dealerships sometime do), he might have rushed through the work.
If a person really wants to know if the rotors are still deformed, they can be measured by dial indicator for run-out, or by a caliper for thickness variation.
Had this happen to a friend just a week or so ago. The mechanic turned the rotors but didnt do a good job. Most of the shudder is gone, but not all of it. A real pisser.
If the technician installs new rotors, but doesnt check them for mating trueness, you can still have a problem. Again, machining them on the car can give relief from this.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
FWIW, I just went thru the same issue with my mother's Acura. Went thru the same stuff, even got new tires (she needed them anyway). I finally said to hell with it & replaced the front discs & pads...problem solved.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

That's always worked for me, though it only happened on one car. And the new rotors were only 20 bucks each. When the rotors are expensive, you might want to look for other solutions first.
--Vic
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
N8N wrote:

I think there may be something you are overlooking here. You described a vibration in the steering wheel that got worse the harder you brake. So that is all we (us readers) know.      The question is to what extent is this affecting your ability to make a panic stop if you are cruising down the highway at 70 mph? If the guy ahead of you has to slam on his brakes are you going to slam into his rear because his brakes are a lot better than yours?     I ask this because it doesn't sound like they even test drove the car after doing the work. It doesn't sound like they are taking this very seriously.
-jim
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
jim wrote:

the brakes work fine, the tires suck though. that'll be what keeps me from stopping as fast as I like if it comes to that. I just worry about prematurely worn out steering parts, esp. since a common issue with this chassis is rattly steering shaft couplers.
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 6/21/09 8:54 PM, in article snipped-for-privacy@news1.newsguy.com, "Nate Nagel"

My '00 Acura developed similar symptoms to what you describe while it was still relatively new & at approximately the same mileage. The problem turned out to be a defective upper ball joint. You may be on the right track looking at suspension & steering components.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
PeterD wrote:

It would be much more like bringing in your just-purchased loaf of bread (still under warranty) and complaining that it hadn't risen enough, then telling the bakery's service advisor "too low yeast content during manufacture is the cause, please add more yeast". The fact is that the loaf had enough yeast in it but it wasn't baked fully. The proper fix would be to bake it fully, but an incompetent service advisor would heed the customer's request and end up with wasted money and a non-repair. Yes, this analogy is technically ludicrous, just trying to make a point.

Agreed. The problem is that customers don't necessarily know *not* to suggest a repair, whether we're talking about warranty or pay services. The service advisor should know better, however, and not write up "turn front rotors", rather he should write "complaint: vibration when braking at 45+ mph that can be felt in the steering wheel" or similar (don't remember Nate's actual complaint to the letter).
--
Toyota MDT in MO

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

There is a difference. If you go in and say you want something done, that is one thing. If you go in offering your suggestions or advice on how to diagnose or repair a problem, that's an entirely different matter.

Agreed. I should have stated my response better. In the case of the OP, I agree with you. In the case of more knowledgable people, not so much.

Again - I think we're talking two different things.
--

-Mike-
snipped-for-privacy@windstream.net
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Discuss your situation with a *quality* shop and go from there.
If you take your car in and ask them to machine the rotors and they dont ask you why, never go there again! A *good* shop will ask a ton of questions before service to determine what will fix your car, and a *good* tech take the 75 or 80 seconds it takes to toss a mag base on before he tears it down.
Finding a brake shimmy is auto shop 101 freshman year. Dial indicator on the rotor, hub if necessary.
So many shops and customers are their own worst enemies...
HTH Ben
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
ben91932 wrote:

I agree, in my particular case I am limited to two shops, if I take it anywhere else I pay out of pocket. just wanted to post to see if anyone had any other things to check just out of curiosity.
I will see if I can take it back on Wed. while I am in a meeting at the office...
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

PROBABLE CAUSE: REMEDY Uneven braking force: Check for mechanical or hydraulic problem. Inoperative brake: Check for seized caliper, fluid leak or restriction, worn or contaminated lining. Weak or broken spring: Replace spring. Worn shocks or struts: Replace struts or shocks Deteriorated suspension bushings (especially control arm pivot): Replace bushings. Loose wheel bearings: Adjust or replace bearings. Excessive disc brake rotor run-out: Replace both front or rear brake discs or rotors. Improper front wheel alignment settings: Adjust alignment to factory specifications.
(From http://www.thepartsbin.com/suspension-steering.html )
--Vic
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Of maybe some help: <http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_warped_brakedisk.shtml# <http://www.brakeandfrontend.com/Article/39171/diagnostic_solutions_servicing_brake_rotors.aspx <http://www.brakeandfrontend.com/Article/38661/advanced_brake_diagnostic_tools.aspx

Did anybody make certain the tires spun ABSOLUTELY true with NO hop, wobble or snaking BEFORE balancing was attempted?
ANYthing but dead-true will result in unsatisfactory performance. And those much-vaunted Hunter road-force machines tend to cover up or disguise inept mounting, so they're not much of an answer.
I've had many years of tire replacements on several cars as personal experience in this matter, many of those replacments being followed by highly inconvenient and annoying multiple re-visits to the garage that did the work in an attempt to get them to fix the vibration, which they rarely could.
I finally gave up and asked my mechanic if he could install tires for me. he said sure. What a difference. So far, glass-smooth EVERY time. Even though his "bedside manner" isn't that great, I worked up the nerve to ask him why he was able to do this and nobody else appears to be able to. He explained the problem in great detail, and showed me physical evidence of why so many places have problems with comebacks due to vibration, using my own tires (mounted by somebody else) as one example.
The upshot? Basically, inept technique. Mounting tires properly is not difficult at all, but does require some very basic knowledge of some very simple things. Problem is, most tire monkeys receive little training, and their bosses understand little to begin with.
--
Tegger


Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Tegger wrote:

<http://www.brakeandfrontend.com/Article/39171/diagnostic_solutions_servicing_brake_rotors.aspx
<http://www.brakeandfrontend.com/Article/38661/advanced_brake_diagnostic_tools.aspx
I can't answer this question (see below)

You just described the exact problem that was driving me nuts on my 944 for literally years until I found a local Porsche club guy who had his own tire machine.
However I have yet to report success because both my rim and tire exhibited runout and I haven't had a chance to swap the tire (on a straight rim) back on the car to see if it is acceptable or if I need another new tire.
But back to the problem at hand, I am limited to two repair shops for work on this car unless I want to pay for the work myself (fleet car) so it may simply remain unresolved, much as it bothers me (I know it can't be good for ball joints, tie rod ends, etc.) Or if I end up with a windfall sometime soon, I may take it to a GOOD shop and just point and say "fix."
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Tegger wrote:

<http://www.brakeandfrontend.com/Article/39171/diagnostic_solutions_servicing_brake_rotors.aspx
<http://www.brakeandfrontend.com/Article/38661/advanced_brake_diagnostic_tools.aspx
then fixing their mistakes and thievery, will do to your bedside manner.
--
Toyota MDT in MO

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Price did not enter into it for me. One of the places that was inept was the local Acura dealer ($110/hr shop rate!). I even made a point of telling everybody I did not care what they charged me, so long as the tires ran smooth the first time. Nobody ever charged me any more than their standard fee.
The reason I was using tire shops instead of my guy was because the tire shops were conveniently close. In some cases, they were within walking distance of my work.
My guy is 60 miles away. He gives me a loaner car, but I still have to find the time to get out there, then time to go back and get my car when it's ready. I used to live much closer, but we moved away in 1994.
I stand by my final assertion: "Problem is, most tire monkeys receive little training, and their bosses understand little to begin with." Tire mounting appears to be the sort of job given to the lowest-paid and least experienced person in the shop.
--
Tegger


Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Tegger wrote:

doesn't win any friendship awards. Most of the time truly good techs work for less $ overall than the competing thieves, add to that - guess who undoes the previous failures, butchery, and needless parts shotgunning performed by said thieves? Then guess who the average customer thinks is the better mechanic? Naturally, the one armed with more BS advertising, flowery ass smoke, and (needless) parts sales. The real shop who charges 1 - 3 hours labor and $10 in wiring supplies (and actually spends that much time finding/fixing the difficult problem) can't even get this type of customer to come back for PM or "normal" repairs where a comfortable living can be made.
--
Toyota MDT in MO

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

meh, if I can find a crusty old guy who works in a two-bay garage with a greasy pit in the floor, but he fixes my crap RIGHT he can give me all the attitude he wants.
The best alignment shop I've ever been to did in fact give you your "alignment report" scribbled in pencil on whatever paper happened to be laying around and the measurements were all in inches. Alignment rack? they had steel ramps and big ass trammels instead. But my cars never drove better...
nate
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Related Threads

    Motorsforum.com is a website by car enthusiasts for car enthusiasts. It is not affiliated with any of the car or spare part manufacturers or car dealers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.