day time lights

Page 11 of 11  


Larry:
I should have included this with my previous reply, but I missed id. FTR, I have not seen any significant amount of pro-DRL posts in this thread. My experience in conversations about DRL's is that neither side has presented any convincing arguments. I would treat pro statements the same way that I've treated yours and Sharon's. I'd expect credible evidence to back up claims, or I'd expect opinions expressed as just that- opinions, and not as fact. From my perspective this has been more of a discussion about the way you presented your argument, than about DRL's themselves. That's what I see in 80 Knight's comments as well. He's not really pro, he's holding your claims up to the light of scrutiny.
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You are correct, there are less, but they are there. I would have expected you and Knight to have been fighting their "opinions" just as strongly, but that did not happen. Anyway?
The discussion should have never been about how a person was presenting it. The discussion should have been about the subject at hand, not personalities or critiquing people.
I would rather talk about the issue and not about myself, thanks.
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Arizona has many 2-lane highways. Some, arrow-straight, with some dips and rises.
The oncoming view is often distorted by heatwaves, but there's no mistaking an approaching vehicle with headlights <ON>
Many Arizona highways require headlights <ON> at all times.
It IS safer !
The main driving distraction seems to be CELL PHONES. They should be disabled when the ignition is <ON> ( probably the next required safety feature )
<rj>
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<RJ> wrote:

Cell phones and people hardwiring their GPS systems so they can "navigate" while driving are potential killers for sure, and States and cities are busy passing legislation against these abuses. As far as DRLs in AZ are concerned, I spent almost a year in Nogales (notrh sides) and never had any trouble seeing vehicles a long distance off in the daylight, no matter what the temperature. BTW, the US military in IRAQ used forward lighting to mask the actual loaction of Army TANKS when fighting out on the desert in 140º F weather, so dont be certain the premise yo stated above is correct.
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<RJ> wrote:

Cell phones and people hardwiring their GPS systems so they can "navigate" while driving are potential killers for sure, and States and cities are busy passing legislation against these abuses. As far as DRLs in AZ are concerned, I spent almost a year in Nogales (both sides) and never had any trouble seeing vehicles a long distance off in the daylight, no matter what the temperature. BTW, the US military in IRAQ (Kuwait war) used forward lighting to mask the actual locations of Army TANKS when fighting out on the desert in 140º F weather, so don't be certain the premise you stated above is correct, since there is evidence to the contrary.
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I suspect you didn't realize what you weren't seeng then Sharon. The effects of heat waves rising up from a road bed are well understood. I don't believe there is necessarily a correlation between DRL discussions and this effect, but to deny the effect brings you claims/experiences into question.

I did a half-hearted (as opposed to an exhaustive) search for this and found nothing. What background info do you have on this? I suspect such things as light intensity, height, and other factors will prove to make this an unqualified ruse. Somehow I have a hard time believing there are standard automotive DRL's mounted on Abrams tanks over there.
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First thing to note, they studied specific vehicles, but I don't see that they studied non-DRL vehicles during the same time frame as a control group. Without that, the results are certainly skewed. As have been noted before, there are studies with opposite conclusions to this.
I too am very curious about the 58.7% figure. I am from Texas and remember well the small areas of lights on for safety. One of those roads had the signs taken down years ago and I haven't seen any signs like that in a long time. If we were saving lives on that mass of a scale, then I do believe that the signs would have stayed up and it would have been big news down here. But, they don't exist anywhere that I know of. Oh, also, comparing the rates of a completely different road to a road with lights on is not valid, as it doesn't take into account the differences between the two different routes. It would have been better to compare the before and after rates of that very same route. I question the validity of that figure, if that study result does actually exist.
Since you are citing the information in one "Speech", one only has to look at these sites and see the organizations that are partnered against DRLs to see that one "speech" is not the only opinion out there.
http://www.dadrl.org.uk/ - 9 additional groups are listed as partner organizations in getting rid of DRLs http://www.lightsout.org/links.html - NMA and Edmund's are listed with negative opinions of the devices
Now, in reference to the five percent figures. Below is what I posted earlier that reveals the following:
1. Ron Zarella from GM says that "there s very little real world data,"
2. Sara Tatchio from Ford says that "the company was waiting for the results of federal glare studies before taking a definitive position on the issue"
3. Chrysler is "awaiting more federal research before deciding whether to mandate them"
4. Tyson calls the "research limited so far and said further study was needed."
Oh yes, there is also the issue where GM says that somehow it has figured out that 423 lives have been saved over 10 years by DRLs. OUt of the millions of vehicles and miles driven, how significant is this? How many lives were taken because of DRLs, during that same time frame?
So, the citing of studies stating a 5 percent success rate is not reliable on the basis of Pro, Con and indifferent perspectives that cannot reference these studies as an actual basis for decision making. Even the fact that GM is verifiably pro-DRL and they can't even truly trust in the figures. There is simply not enough real world data to back that up reliably.

-----------------------------------
Ron Zarella from GM:
"The automaker now offers daytime running lights, or DRLs, in all vehicles sold in the U.S. and Canada. While Zarrella acknowledged "there s very little real world data," he said there s enough evidence to suggest DRLs "have reduced relevant crashes by 5 percent, or 15,000 crashes" in the U.S. alone." http://www.autotrader.com/research/shared/article.jsp?article_id $96...
Comment: No real world data but he can "suggest" the result?
-----------------------------------
"(Detroit-AP, Dec. 20, 2001) _ General Motors Corp. has asked the federal government to require daytime running lights on all vehicles sold in the United States, the company said Thursday."
" Ford Motor Co. does not install the lights on its U.S. products, spokeswoman Sara Tatchio said. She said the company was waiting for the results of federal glare studies before taking a definitive position on the issue.
The Chrysler Group of DaimlerChrysler AG installs the lights in some U.S. fleet vehicles and all Canadian vehicles, spokeswoman Angela Ford said. The company was awaiting more federal research before deciding whether to mandate them, she said."
" Referring to federal studies, Lange said the lights have reduced daytime collisions by 5 percent, and daytime, single-vehicle pedestrian fatalities by 28 percent.
Tyson called the research limited so far and said further study was needed."
http://www.wtnh.com/Global/story.asp?SY4336
-----------------------------------
Rise in Motorcycle and Pedestrian Deaths Led to Increase in Overall Highway Fatality Rate in 2005 http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/portal/site/nhtsa/template.MAXIMIZE/menuitem ...
-----------------------------------
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My car has a feature that let's me turn the high beams on and off with the pulling of a switch.

Gee, do you turn your headlights off at night time when they are glaring into another vehicle?

A lot of vehicles allow you to disable the DRL's by applying the parking brake.

This is about the only 'reason' I can partly agree with. Even though a lot of vehicles have auto headlights these days, there are still some people who don't bother to use there headlights at the correct times. However, this isn't due to the DRL's, it's the driver.

And pumping gasoline to my injectors makes my fuel pump wear out faster. What's your point?

I bet GM (and all the rest) don't run the air-conditioner when testing either. Once again, what's your point?

Like I said, here in Canada, they have been used for many years, and I never hear anyone complaining.

You post this "information", and then accuse US of having weak positions?

So, you want a button to turn the DRL's on and off? Yeah, that will work...

What about the drivers who don't have DRL's, and yet still can't manage to turn there headlights on in the rain, fog, etc.?

So, now not only are DRL's bad, but so are people who drive Saturn's and Volvo's? Me thinks you're tin hat needs adjusting...
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Back to my question without all this BS.
I feel DRL are safer and I could give a S*** less what others feel. Of course I also feel seatbelts and helmet safe lives and have always used them.
I have found that some cars built by GM are equipped some are not. Just because they are not working dose not indicate the car is not equipped. As it turns out mine is not. Best way to tell on a LaSabre is under the hood on the drivers side near the horn you will have a resistor bank if your auto is so equipped.
END OF DISCUSSION for me.
Thank you for those who offered help.

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Just wanted to point out, Tim, here in Canada, we have "Canadian Tire" stores. From what I have heard, they are basically our version of your "AutoZone". They actually sell a unit for cars without DRL's. It hooks into the lights, and (if memory serves) basically turns the lights on whenever the car is running. Would something like that work for what you are trying? Here is a link to the page for the device (if the link doesn't work, just go to www.canadiantire.ca and search for "driving light": http://www.canadiantire.ca/browse/product_detail.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id 08474396673462&bmUID88813099228&PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id„5524443278206&assortment=primary&fromSearch=true
Also, you said you car isn't equipped with DRL's, but does it have the wiring, just no DRL module? If so, you may be able to purchase the DRL module off e-bay, or even someone who has one laying around.

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This thread has to set a new record of the longest ever.

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Haven't been around Usenet much, eh? I have seen threads started about much smaller topics, go on for months, even years.

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I was talking of THIS group not all of Usenet

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Nah - this group has seen some pretty long threads that have chased down some pretty deep rabbit holes. I didn't do any google searches to compare the length of this thread to others, but I'd be surprised if it were the mother of all threads.
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Just like most of this thread it really dose not matter LOL.

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Oh heck - far from it.
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on Tuesday 04 September 2007 08:44 pm, someone posing as Tim took a rock and etched into the cave:

Bah - you've obviously not seen the hacker beer thread in alt.2600...
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