Dealing With The Dealer

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And some of those are outsourcing to India, I hear! :-( Somehow, the old adage "you get what you pay for" factors into this situation.


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Toyota is indeed growing but is still third in total sales, but not necessarily earnings, to GM and Ford worldwide and in the US. GM and Ford far outsell Toyota in most of the markets in which they actually compete but Toyota sells in many markets where GM and or Ford do not compete like mini cars and trucks.
mike hunt
"James C. Reeves" wrote:

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"General Motors Corp. will defend its shrinking U.S. market share and keep incentives aggressive after sales fell 16 percent in November, North American President Gary Cowger said."
The rest of the article can be found at http://www.freep.com/money/business/gm4e_20041204.htm
Easy to find, I just Googled GM + "market share"
Chuck in Phoenix

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| "General Motors Corp. will defend its shrinking U.S. market share and keep | incentives aggressive after sales fell 16 percent in November, North | American President Gary Cowger said." | | The rest of the article can be found at | http://www.freep.com/money/business/gm4e_20041204.htm | | Easy to find, I just Googled GM + "market share" | | Chuck in Phoenix |
That approach has many potentially long term destructive edges. Some consumers ask what is wrong with the product if GM has to "give their cars away" (nothing, of course, but the perception one paints becomes reality). Some consumers will equate the product with "cheap" (I don't mean price, but quality...again a perception this approach paints to some people). Some consumers see it as "desperation" by GM to "try to stay in business" (even though that isn't the case...I hope!). Of course, this approach really tightens the margins and cuts into profits too! The "Pro" is it keeps more of the factories operating and our wonderful US people working! Overall, it's not a good long-term approach and they've been using it for 3-years now...too long!!
GM management really needs to stop dicking around and get into the *why* they have to go to this excessive level to move their cars when their competitors haven't needed to go nearly as far as they have had to. I think Ford is the only other one that gives discounts close to GM (although I think they've even backed off of that recently). Now as a consumer, those that want GM cars get a VERY good price. But GM management needs to get off the dime and find out why this is happening to them and fix it. When they do, maybe I will buy my GM stock back again!!!
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If you think you are getting a big discount on domestics, think again. The imports are generally much higher in price than their domestic competitors comparable size and equipped vehicles. The domestics have raised their prices over the past few years closer to the prices of their import competitors, to allow them to discount back to the price they intended to sell them. You sited Ford. For example the V8 Grand Marquis GS, very nicely equipped with a leather gut, has an MSRP just short of 27K. Since it is a RWD car Ford can build and sell it at about the same MSRP of the much smaller FWD V6 Camry. Ford offers a $4,000 rebate on the GM. The only problem is the exact same car had an MSRP of 23K three years ago and a $1,000 rebate. The Escalade that was once 50K is now 60K but but with a rebate. There was a time when the only way you could buy a Toyota was to pay MSRP plus some smoke an mirrors, not today. Toyota dealers in comparative markets will sell at invoice and Toyota is offering 'cash back' or a rebate. According to 'Automotive News' Toyota is trying to stop dealers from offering special discount by not paying their half of co-op advertising costs for ads that offer 'blow out' or 'below invoice' pricing" ;)
mike hunt
"James C. Reeves" wrote:

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Interesting how toyota has a larger market valuation than gm, ford, and chrysler COMBINED! And makes more profit than any of these companies. In business terms, biggest is not the best, the one who makes the most money, has the highest margins, and the highest overall profit is the winner.
Example, you sell 20 widgets and make a total profit of $3. I sell only 10 widgets but make $5 in profit. Who is better off?
And the fact is companies like toytota and honda have been gaining market share at gm's expense for so long and continue to do so.
Does anyone here remember 'The road to redemption'. Or www.pistonslap.com
Just my 2 cents!
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| Interesting how toyota has a larger market valuation than gm, ford, and | chrysler COMBINED! And makes more profit than any of these companies. | In business terms, biggest is not the best, the one who makes the most | money, has the highest margins, and the highest overall profit is the | winner. | | Example, you sell 20 widgets and make a total profit of $3. I sell | only 10 widgets but make $5 in profit. Who is better off? | | And the fact is companies like toytota and honda have been gaining | market share at gm's expense for so long and continue to do so. | | Does anyone here remember 'The road to redemption'. Or | www.pistonslap.com | | Just my 2 cents! |
No, you're right on track. And I do remember the road to redemption campaign and GM's marketing people should be fired. Imagine trying to sell using a negative and "admitting" that GM's "quality" will never compete. Who approved that crap anyway?!
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I believe you missed the point, GM is not losing to ANYONE, they are number one in total sales in the US and worldwide. GM sales numbers are going up, not down, as some would suggest. GM's sales numbers, like just about every other manufacture, are going UP. What is happening in the US is the market is expanding, among all brands, some more than others, however. We often read of percentage increases or decreases per manufacture but that can be deceiving since the percentages are not on similar total sales. Toyota for instance sells the number on car, but Ford sells the number one vehicle and at a rate nearly twice that of the number one car and GM outsells every other manufacture in number of cars and trucks sold and Ford in second. Toyota in reality is at only about 10% of the total number of vehicles sold in the US. The market growth is in trucks not cars. Comparing apples to apples would be a better way of determining who is doing what to whom.
mike hunt
snipped-for-privacy@mailcity.com wrote:

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GM total sales are indeed growing. GM's competitors like to mention share but what they fail to point out the market expands yearly. The latest numbers are around sixteen million or more, the largest percent of which are light trucks. When GM, Ford and DerMopar were the only brands on the market it was only around eight million a year and truck sales were only about ten percent of that number. GM, Ford and dodge sell more trucks than some brands, like Toyota, sell total cars and trucks combined
mike hunt
"James C. Reeves" wrote:

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| GM total sales are indeed growing. GM's competitors like to | mention share but what they fail to point out the market expands | yearly. The latest numbers are around sixteen million or more, | the largest percent of which are light trucks. When GM, Ford and | DerMopar were the only brands on the market it was only around | eight million a year and truck sales were only about ten percent | of that number. GM, Ford and dodge sell more trucks than some | brands, like Toyota, sell total cars and trucks combined | | | | mike hunt | |
Market share is a good barometer though for companies to user for competive comparison purposes. It answers the important management question as to which companies are connecting with the customer. Now if it could answer the whys and hows question!!! GM makes some of the best products out there (certainly better than Toyota!). But there is something seemingly pervasive happening that is causing "share" to continually erode. My personal opinion is it is how GM treats the customers that do have problems. Toyota (and in my personal experience, Chrysler) really steps up in that area. GM falls down in that area...which will have a fairly significant alienating effect on the customer no matter how good the product is.
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GM sells far more vehicle in the US now, at a 30%, share than they did at the highest share, when it was at 52% in the early fifties. The answer lies in the number of model now available to consumers from over a dozen manufactures, not anything manufactures do or do not do to the the buyers of their vehicles. Toyota has the number one selling car in the US but is number one on the list of the worst dealers, according to customer surveys.
I stopped buying from Toyota after a number of Lexus' because the dealer was taking me for granted as a customer. For some reason they seem to think you are an idiot if you don't buy another Lexus. I switched to an American luxury brand that has proven to be just as good a car at 2/3 the price. In fact I saved so much on the first one I bought from them in 1999, I was able to buy one of the same manufacturers sporty convertibles with the savings. My new dealer likes me as a customer and treats me just fine. It is after all the dearer that you do business with and the one that provides your warranty work and service, not the manufacture. I have purchased five more new vehicles from him and have another 2005 on order.
mike hunt
"James C. Reeves" wrote:

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| > | GM total sales are indeed growing. GM's competitors like to | > | mention share but what they fail to point out the market expands | > | yearly. The latest numbers are around sixteen million or more, | > | the largest percent of which are light trucks. When GM, Ford and | > | DerMopar were the only brands on the market it was only around | > | eight million a year and truck sales were only about ten percent | > | of that number. GM, Ford and dodge sell more trucks than some | > | brands, like Toyota, sell total cars and trucks combined | > | | > | | > | | > | mike hunt | > | | > | | > | > Market share is a good barometer though for companies to user for competive | > comparison purposes. It answers the important management question as to which | > companies are connecting with the customer. Now if it could answer the whys | > and hows question!!! GM makes some of the best products out there (certainly | > better than Toyota!). But there is something seemingly pervasive happening | > that is causing "share" to continually erode. My personal opinion is it is how | > GM treats the customers that do have problems. Toyota (and in my personal | > experience, Chrysler) really steps up in that area. GM falls down in that | > area...which will have a fairly significant alienating effect on the customer | > no matter how good the product is.
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Your experience with the GM customer Service Center sounds familiar.
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Your going about this wrong. This is a civil matter. What it boils down to is this - if the dealer misrepresented the car to you, they committed fraud. If they didn't, then your stuck and you can only run it through the regular warranty repair channels.
You said you bought this car new. Well, where did this collision take place? Did someone come into the dealership and buy the vehicle, then drive it off the lot and into a tree, then turn it back in to the dealer? If so, that is if the was any prior owner on the title, then the car is used, not new, and the dealer defrauded you.
If the collision took place while the car was property of the dealer - such as, during a test drive or some such - then I would assume of course that there was more than 5 miles or so on the odometer of the vehicle when you bought it, and that you probably got some fantastic deal on it as a "demo" car, AND more importantly, it was probably represented to you as a demo car. This is where things get sticky.
In this case while the car still must meet the definition of new - no prior owner on the title - since it was represented as a demo, and the definition of a demo is one where the car is going to have some wear on it - your kind of in a legal grey area. On one hand a reasonable person would assume that any damage on a demo would be minor dents, dings, and such, not a major collision. On the other, since the dealer didn't represent it as pristine condition, by accepting it as such you are on very shaky ground to attempt to prove a fraud claim. If the collision was minor, such as just a smashed fender and nothing else, then the dealer could probably reasonably argue to a court that a smashed fender was consistent with normal wear and tear on a demo. If the collision bent the frame, deployed the airbags, broke half the windows and knocked the engine around in the bay, well that is a different matter.
Now, IF on the other hand the dealer represented the car to you as a brand new vehicle - not a demo - then there is an implication there that as a brand new vehicle it isn't going to have some hidden collision damage. In that case the dealer committed fraud by misrepresenting the car.
If there is fraud involved the Chevy Assistance Center cannot help you. This is a criminal matter and must be handled by local law enforcement - the police, or the local district attorney and office of consumer protection.
If your fraud claim is clear cut, those organizations will help you. If however your claim is shaky -such as you bought the car as a demo and the collision damage was one front fender, that was replaced and a bad spray paint job was done on it - then they aren't going to do much. In that case you can try going it alone with a private lawyer, but it would be better for you to just work it through the normal warranty channels. In this case you would submit it to ANY dealer, not necessairly the one you bought the car from, as a bad paint job claim, since from Chevy's point of view, a collision never happened on this car.

You are being kind of stupid in my book, frankly. You bought a 2004 vehicle 4 months after the new model year started, there's a damn good chance that you bought it as a 'speciul deal' demo car or some such. Certainly you knew damn well that it has more than 4 miles on the odometer when you drove it off the lot. And now your finding out why it was such a special deal and your mad, because you want the same car that everyone else got who paid full price for one.
Ted
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On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 19:22:31 -0600, Blue Yonder

Yes... I believe that would be their defense lawyers. If you hire a Lawyer of your own you'll get a response rather quickly from all parties. (I believe the term misrepresentation isn't a word that is appreciated by defense council)

Often times yes.

Take away the Taxpayer safety net & the US auto industry would sort itself out (though it might be in bankruptcy courts)
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