Detroit auto makers try some new tricks

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"Joe" ...

"n5hsr" >>

That thing was even uglier than the Aztek - that's saying something.
Natalie
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The Falcon Club Wagon of the mid sixties offered a similar truck but with a lower tailgate because the engine was in the front. The Club wagon was larger, more powerful and not nearly as expensive as the VW
mike

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Just Facts wrote:

It was 84, and VW *never* made a minivan. They made a pile of crap that came in three different but equally vile scents (microbus, vanagon, and eurovan), but not a minivan. Its amazing that for all VW has done well over the years, they have some kind of corporate mental block against building a decent van.
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No, I equate "traditional American" with "Ford LTD/Fairmont/Grand Marquis". RWD, body on frame.
So now they do it with trucks. They're miserable with modern, compact, efficient cars.

Really?
Funny thing--Honda came into the market with fwd cars. The only rwd car they ever did was NSX.
Honda predated the GM small, efficient, fwd cars by eons.
And when GM came into the market with fwd, what was it with? Riviera. Huge boat of a car.
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Really really.

Fine and dandy. Where did I mention "Honda" above?

Honda hasn't existed an "eon," only about 40 years.

Actually the Riviera wasn't the first GM front-drive, that would have been the Toronado/Eldorado. And *THOSE* were prowling the roads before Honda was even *building* cars. The Riv was moved to the FWD platform some years later. About the time Honda was developing a car with a rubber docking ring around the rear window and a motorcyle engine under the hood....
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----- Original Message -----
Newsgroups: alt.autos.gm,alt.autos.ford,rec.autos.makers.chrysler,alt.autos.toyota Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 7:25 PM Subject: Re: Detroit auto makers try some new tricks

The S2000 is RWD. They also do RWD mini-vans in Japan. The first production Honda, the S500 was also RWD (but by chain....).

There was a reason for this. The market for cars the size of the original Civic was miniscule before the mid-70's. GM sold many small cars in Europe before Honda even existed. Admittedly they were RWD, but then so were Toyotas of the era.

GM's first mass produced FWD car in the US was the Oldsmobile Tornado, not the Buick Rivera (although the last versions of the Rivera were FWD as well). The Cadillac El Dorado also went FWD in the 70's. Honda was not the first to build small fuel efficient FWD cars, but as a "new" manufacturer they had little incentive to build rear wheel drive cars. Since they were largely starting from scratch in the car industry, they had no vested interest in choosing RWD over FWD. I can't see how you can fault GM for continuing to build cars that sold relatively well. If anything, GM when overboard in converting cars to FWD in the 80's.
Ed
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Can you actually prove that is generally true? I certainly know of many domestic cars that are very old and have given very good service. And I know many Japanese cars that are very old and have given very good service. But the reverse is also true (for both Japanese and Domestic vehicles). I've owned Japanese, American, German, and English cars. The worst car I ever owned was a Toyota. The second worst was a Chrysler (although to be honest, the least reliable were English, but at least they were "fun"). My family and I have had generally good luck with Ford products over my lifetime (50+ years). I can only remember one Ford that gave my Father any significant trouble, and most of the problems with that car were related to improper diagnosis of a very minor problem (if you want to know how a missing piece of insulation can generate thousands of dollars of repairs, I'll relate the story).
Ed
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On Sep 18, 7:53 pm, "Wickeddoll®"

Uh, Odyssey? Sienna?

Like the old "I've had this axe for 50 years. Replaced the handle twice and the axe head 3 times."

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On Sep 15, 6:29 pm, "Wickeddoll®"

Gosh, I drive mine right by the shop every day, dont even have to stop there. Wonder what I'm doing right?
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On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 23:19:49 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com wrote:

Every Toyota dealer I've seen has just as large a service area as the American dealers. If Toyotas never need work, what's up with that???
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"Ashton Crusher" , snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com wrote:

"Wickeddoll®" wrote:

First of all, I've never heard *anyone* say Toyotas *never* have problems.
Secondly, I only take my car to Toyota dealerships for regular maintenance. I've been burned too many times at other places.
Natalie
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On Sep 17, 11:02 pm, "Wickeddoll®"

You havent been reading some of the posts here, have you??? We on occasion, have quests who visit here and make claims of something like 9 million miles without any probems on their Toyotas. Guess they just cant contain such excitement on the Toyota site, and have to come over here and share their experiences.

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"Wickeddoll®" wrote:

You havent been reading some of the posts here, have you??? We on occasion, have quests who visit here and make claims of something like 9 million miles without any probems on their Toyotas. Guess they just cant contain such excitement on the Toyota site, and have to come over here and share their experiences.
Coach
Oh please, I've have been on this NG for many years, and I read most of the posts about cars (I don't always read the off-topic stuff), and I have yet to see any posts that say "I have never heard of a Toyota having a problem."
Ludicrous.
What we keep saying, and you refuse to acknowledge, is that when Toyotas *do* have problems, the recall/notice practices are far superior.
I'd rather hear from Toyota that something may be or is wrong with my car, than to find out the hard way, as domestic carmakers like to do. I hope they at least are more up front in the future, and don't blame the consumer when something is fubared on their cars. I think most people can forgive errors, but nobody I know likes to be called a liar or incapable of driving a vehicle properly.
You know as well as I do, that domestic car makers are well-known for citing "driver/owner error" when someone dies in their vehicles.
Natalie
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Wickeddoll® wrote:

That's a perfect example of proper use of a double negative. I hate it when people say you can't use double negatives.

I told part of this story in an earlier post, but back in the early 80's, when I had a Chevrolet Citation, I complained loudly to the dealer and the regional GM rep that there was a serious problem with the brakes - after I had, on 2 occasions gone thru a red light *backwards* because I made a not-even-moderately-hard stop in the rain when the yellow light caught me. The regional rep (a retired NASCAR driver) actually told me that that sort of thing only happens because people don't know how to drive. I told him that when GM starts providing high speed driving school training with the purchase of the car, I would believe that. A year later, NHTSA recalled the cars after several people were killed due to rear brakes locking up (by that time, I had figured out what the fix was and implemented it on my car).
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
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"Bill Putney" ...

Um, thanks?

My God - bottom line over lives. Whether they care or not, they should have realized the consequences of their inaction.
Natalie
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Wickeddoll® wrote:

You're very welcome? :)
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
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But that's the point. They evaluated it like insurance actuaries, and it came out that to fix it or acknowledge it was more costly than letting it go.
Just like the Ford Pinto gas tank.
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"Elmo P. Shagnasty" ...

Oh dear - you'll really get the Pinto fans riled up with that one.
They swear it wasn't a defect, even to this day. I'm not talking about the company, mind you - I'm talking about individuals who have posted that the car wasn't defective.
Natalie
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Individuals also claim that man never walked on the moon, that it was a hoax.
Individuals also claim that the earth is flat.
People are stupid. Go from there.
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Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

It's been documented that Ford had a choice of putting a certain part in the gas tank that they knew would prevent fires/explosions in case of a rear end collision. IIRC, the cost of the part in the money of the day was around $11 per car. They did a statistical trade study and determined that they would be money ahead to save the $11 per car and let the problem happen in the statistically probable number of rear end collisions that would occur over the life of the vehicle (not sure how they figured their costs for the results of the acccidents to compare against the $11 per car). They knowingly decided to leave the part out based on that trade study.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
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