DRL on 2003 Buick Century

| Jimmy, I see that you've finally emerged from hibernation and you're | you're still bitching about the same old crap.

Thanks for noticing Richie! What is one person's crap is another's treasure. We all have to be passionate about something silly to champion in our lives, don't we? BTW: I didn't bring up the DRL topic. A post by "ORV" did (wanting to know how to disconnect them...hmm at least two of us!). :-) The discussion/debate came from that.

| I know one guy in my area that wishes he had DRL's on | his car. His wife drove with NO lghts on and was | struck head-on by a large truck that was turning onto | the street.

I'm very sorry to hear that. Even if she had DRLs, had she been turned in a different direction she would likely have been rear ended or side-swiped by the truck instead (no tail/side lights with DRLs).

Curious, why was the truck on he wrong side of the street? If the truck driver was intoxicated or something, lights _may_ not have helped much anyway.

| If people driving through dark tunnels, at night, in shade and in heavy | rain would turn their lights on, DRL's might not be necesary.

Since side marker and tail lights are not lit with DRL systems, DRLs are not the solution to those issues. And the shade/tunnel situations are what, 1% of total drive time at best? Lighting laws in most states deal with the rain/fog/snow/night scenario. I've known people to get tickets for not having their lights on before...give out more tickets. All lights need to be on in those cases...DRL isn't enough. DRL _may_ actually _promote_ driving without lights for some people out there based on increased rear-end collision data for DRL-equipped cars.

| But, you have idiots that will not turn on their lights as long | as they can see their hand in front of their face.

No arguement here, a true statement. I would argue that the better solution is to give out frequent citations in those cases. It would train them to think and take personal responsibility to use their lights correctly OR face the consequences of fines, points and increased insurance costs. Auto systems & DRLs make people _not_ think and are like mommy cleaning up for little Billy so Billy never learns to clean up for himself. Do we REALLY want to create a environment that will produce even more idiots out there then already exist? OR would we want to reinforce responsibility by better driver training and enforcement of the laws?

| If Canada had not made DRL's mandatory, GM may not | have put them on their vehicles.

GM statements seem to imply it was all their idea in the name of safety. :-). But, I'm sure you are correct since GM save's money by making one product set for the two different countries.

| After all, DRL's DO prevent accidents (and save lives), regardless of anything you or | your anti-DRL organization might say.

Yes, that is a factual statement, but it is incomplete. Yes, certan types/categories of accidents statistically show a reduction in cars outfitted with DRLs (and lives saved?). However, it is also true that other types of accidents statistically show a increase (maybe caused) by DRLs (and lives lost?). The net effect across all accident categories, at least if you believe the 1997 HLDI study, is a 8% increased risk overall of accident with DRL-equipped cars.

Have you ever wondered why GM and the politicians only "cherry pick" the studies and cite specific accident categories (the ones that indicate benefit of DRL) and never, ever cite _overall_ statistics across _all_ accident categories? Why don't you ask them? Don't be a lemming...probe and question. Don't accept the opinions of entities that have a conflicting profit motive. I know the answer. It is because doing so is far less favorable (indeed detrimental in my opinion) to their position.

| Incidently, I'm still installing DRL's on cars for the | countless numbers of people that see the true | benefits of them.

People follow the pack...it's human nature to be in the "trendy" crowd, although no one will admit it! :-) As I stated before and will again, I defend individual choice. If a individual wants DRLs for what ever reason, then fine. I thought it was clear that the beef is with a corporate entity like GM insinuating themselves into what should be personal choice (the NHTSA rule says DRL use is to be "voluntary").

However, since you appear from your last statement to have a profit motive (installer of DRLs) your support of them, although very likely genuine...I'm not saying it isn't, is tainted...just like many of the pro-DRL studies funded by entities like GM. One can rightfully ask if your support of DRL is because you believe in them, or because you make money from them. It's the same quandary GM is in.

Reply to
James C. Reeves
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How many convictions do you get before they take your license away?

---Bob Gross---

Reply to
Robertwgross

First, Jim, the truck was making a wide turn (legal turn) with his lights on. The woman (for unknown reasons) did not see an 18-wheeler with his lights on. She also did not notice that none of her dash lights were on. They should lock her up for hoarding the stupid gene. Looking at your dash should tell you if your lights are on. If that fails, look at objects in front of you for a reflection.

The reason you have seen an increase in highway deaths is partly because of the increased speed limits and the people's willingness to speed (just to see how fast it'll go). You also ave the idiots that want to "test" the local police or play games on the highway. When you come up on a "normal" vehicle from the rear, you will see the reflectors that are built into the tailight lenses (that's why they're there). Even the side markers have reflectors in them.

If every driver did what they're supposed to do, there would be fewer accidents. What is that you ask? Try paying attention to your primary job of driving and not to something else like your cell phone or the person next to you. It is possible to talk to someone without looking directly at them, especially when you're driving.

I've driven a lot of years and many miles (one million +) and all of them were with my headlights on. I've never gotten a ticket or had an at-fault accident. I am also certain that having my lights on has saved me more than a few times.

The U.S. has been conducting studies of lights vs no lights (during daylight hours) for decades and all the ones I've read advise using lights during the daytime. They even assign a "safety number" that is based on your level of lighting. So, GM didn't invent any of this. If you hate GM so much and no longer own one, why not go back to the Honda board to rant - I'm sure they love you there.

Reply to
Rich B

|> I had never seen or heard of a car before where the |> operator couldn't turn their lights off and the dealer |> certainly didn't disclose the fact. No matter, I was |> willing to take a $6,000 hit to get rid of the car, so my |> convictions are genuine. | | How many convictions do you get before they take your | license away? |

It's twelve points here to loose driving privileges. I'm not sure how many points are levied for each conviction of driving with improper lighting. Since I haven't had a ticket for anything in over 30 years, I guess I could start pressing the envelope a bit more.

I realize your question was rhetorical, (and frankly irrelevant to the topic) but I couldn't resist. ;-) It amazes me that those that don't have relevant counter points to contribute to a discussion/debate tend to resort to a belittle tactic in the attempt to try and disqualify valid debate points that were made based on cited data/studies and observation. But, it is a tactic that can often work effectively. Touché. Thinking people see through it though and can separate that information which is relevant to apply in order for them to make their own personal decision and to weed out that which is a attempt to side track the debate. You must have learned that tactic from Johnnie Cochran.

Reply to
James C. Reeves

Never seen a 98 Dodge caravan then huh. Auto every light. When started the dodge had all the lights on just like you had turned on the switch. Could not be shut off with the switch either. The only function of the switch was to turn the lights on if the engine was not running.

Reply to
Steve W.

Makes sense, a very sad story. If she was killed or injured, my condolences go out to your friend.

In some lighting conditions (daytime fog), the dash lights are not always easy to see and some (not all) people apparently are confusing the DRL reflection in the bright fog with their headlights being on. The system introduces driver confusion for some percentage of the driving public, obviously.

| The reason you have seen an increase in highway deaths is partly because | of the increased speed limits and the people's willingness to speed | (just to see how fast it'll go). You also ave the idiots that want to | "test" the local police or play games on the highway.

I would agree that speed is a contributing dynamic to accident rates, one of many factors. Long term weather patterns seem to be a big one...and is a very changeable dynamic from year to year too. Which make it hard to guage benefits of judgiing one purposefully changing dynamic since the others also change and can't be relied on as a fixed control point.

| When you come up on a "normal" vehicle from the rear, | you will see the reflectors that are built into the tailight | lenses (that's why they're there). Even the | side markers have reflectors in them.

It doesn't substitute for having the lamp lit. Not even close. Especially on a turn that the truck was making since the reflectors would only work once the trucks headlights came around to shine on them. It may be to late at that point (in that example).

Again, the data on increased rear-end collision rates on DRL equipped vehicles is fact and strongly suggest that a configuration that doesn't illuminate the tail lights introduces a dynamic that is counter to improved safety (in those cases). I would argue that the data suggests that reflectors alone are not effective enough. I think Volvo is the only manufacturer that illuminates all lamps all around with their DRLs. But then there are studies that suggest doing that reduces the noticeability of (and/or reaction times to) brake lights during the daytime. I _think_ Volvo solved that problem by implementing completely separate brake lights from the running lights. GM didn't spend the money to do that, so no lights in the back (or side) at all!

| If every driver did what they're supposed to do, there would be fewer | accidents. What is that you ask? Try paying attention to your primary | job of driving and not to something else like your cell phone or the | person next to you. It is possible to talk to someone without looking | directly at them, especially when you're driving.

All good points...and I agree. A driver paying due attention to the task at hand will be more likely to operate the vehicle properly (all aspects, including lighting)

| I've driven a lot of years and many miles (one million +) and all of | them were with my headlights on. I've never gotten a ticket or had an | at-fault accident. I am also certain that having my lights on has saved | me more than a few times.

Also 30+ years, probably somewhere around a million miles, no accidents that were my fault (was rear ended waiting at a stop light), one ticket in my early 20s (speeding). No lights on in the daytime ever (well, except when I owned the Malibu for 9-months this year). But, our personal results are way too small of an sample to be meaningful. Anecdotal items are interesting, but it doesn't really paint the big picture that only full data can. For example, my wife had a person pull out in front of her a couple of years ago at dusk and she t-boned him at a intersection. She had her lights on and her 1997 Dodge Neon was a VERY bright "perriwinkle" blue color. If someone didn't see her headlights, surely the perriwinkle blue would draw attention. But, I don't typically use that example (and suggest no one reading this to either) as a reason for not having DRLs since one accident does not a point make. I will say her Neon took the impact MUCH better than the Honda she collided with did. Chrysler was American owned back in 1997!

| The U.S. has been conducting studies of lights vs no lights (during | daylight hours) for decades and all the ones I've read advise using | lights during the daytime. They even assign a "safety number" that is | based on your level of lighting.

Please find the names of the studies you mention and I'll look them up. I'd like to see if I have seen those or not. I'm open. I've given you the names of some the studies that I cited. Google them, see for yourself. I don't expect anyone to take my word for it face value without looking for themselves. I certainly wouldn't :-)

| So, GM didn't invent any of this.

I agree, but if you listen to them, you would think they did. They're "out in front of the issue", I think is verbatim. :-)

| If you hate GM so much and no longer own one, why not | go back to the Honda board to rant - I'm sure they love | you there.

No Hondas for me thanks! I want a American product that isn't a Ford! ;-) GM is the only game in town to that end. I came from several generations of GM buyers. One Grandfather bought Cadillacs/Pontiacs (in fact my Uncle still has the 1973 GrandAm with the 455 V8 my Granddad had when he died). The other grandfather bought Chevys (I still remember when I was a kid, the brand new 1957 BelAir he had....sweet!). Dad bought Chevys, exclusively. I love GM...I just don't like recent anti customer choice policies...do you have another suggestion on how to impart change in that regard? I already sold the GM stock I owned in protest too.

Reply to
James C. Reeves

Incorrect, I have family members that own a 1996 Dakota SE, 1997 Grand Caravan, 2000 Neon ES, 2003 Stratus SE and I have a 2004 Sebring LXi (that I replaced the Malibu with). Lights on all of them, including my new 2004 Sebring, function only by the switch.

Reply to
James C. Reeves

Well James I am not incorrect, I have the 98 sitting in the driveway. It has fully automatic lights, side markers, tail lights and dash lights ALL lights come on as soon as you start the engine. The switch ONLY works when the engine is shut off. Also the 99 that I had came with DRLs that were the marker lights , no label stating they were DRLs and Dodge sent out clear stickers stating DRL that you were supposed to put on the lights to make them legal. Now the 2000 that I ran had normal DRLs using the headlights as did the 2001. These were all company vehicles (I picked up the 98 after driving it 120,000 miles in about 9 months, so I KNOW that vehicle)

Reply to
Steve W.

I'm curious. How can you drive 120,000 miles in 9 months on one vehicle?

If I drive only 12,000 miles in 9 months, that would be a lot for me.

---Bob Gross---

Reply to
Robertwgross

The earlier point I made was that the customer can choose DRL (or not) when non-GM. I'm sure your Chrysler products had DRL and work as you stated. But if you live in the US it doesn't have to if _you_ don't want it to. I was merely attempting (poorly apparently) to say that your description of how your Chrysler product works was "incorrect" in the implication that Chrysler DRL system are also mandatory and _always_ work that way.

Reply to
James C. Reeves

The company I worked for ran the NYS Lottery. The territory I covered as a Senior Rep. covered the territory N/S from Canada's border to Penn. border and E/W from Rochester area to Albany. It was not uncommon to start out in the morning at 4:30 or so, be in Binghamton by 6 and then drive to Ogdensburg and then back to my office in Syracuse before returning to my house near Herkimer. Then making a trip the next day up to Lake Placid ,down to Albany,back up to Lake George, over to Blue Mountain Lake, then on to Watertown and down to Syracuse and back home. Most days were around 350-400 miles. Just a trip to my office was 185 round trip. That was why we had the vans, Mine was set up with 3 cell phones 2 pagers,a laptop and a GPS unit. Plus 3-4 lottery machines and attendant hardware for them. The driving is the part of the job I miss the most.

Reply to
Steve W.

Have you considered a job with Greyhound?

---Bob Gross---

Reply to
Robertwgross

Heavy duty mileage for sure. How well do the vehicle hold up under that level of use? Just curious. The most I think I ever did in a year was about 35,000 miles.

Reply to
James C. Reeves

Well we ran, Caravans for the most part and they have tested Dakotas and full size vans as well. The Caravans hold up real well, of course they did have a few trans problems with some of the early ones. Once Dodge redid the trannys they were much better. Most of them were over 100,000 when they were retired. The CSRs had first dibs on buying them, and many of them are still running strong. The 2001 I had was a nice rig but it only made it to 45,000 before it met a deer and the guard rails. They totaled it out with over 5,000 in damage. The Dakotas were standard cab long boxes with work caps on them, they sucked gas like there was no tomorrow, best we ever saw was 14 mpg. The vans ran 20-22 avg all had the 3.3. Biggest problem after the trans are brakes on the new ones, factory pads went about 50k but in the city they were lucky to get 10k on a set, all stop/go down there. Only other problem seemed to be the rear wing window motors but I never had a problem. Oil changes every 5-6k trans at 35k,50k,75k, tires rotated at each oil change. Not much else.

Reply to
Steve W.

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