for the guys that are into recreational oil changing...

If you drive your car like a fleet vehicle than this might apply. If you are the typical driver you better stick to the manufacturer's recommendation.

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Pretty sure he was directing the original post at the people that go far beyond the manufacturer's recommendations. Believe it or not, there are still some people out there doing two to three times the number of oil changes that the manufacturer recommends (i.e. 3000 mile oil changes) because they don't understand that excessive oil changes provide no additional benefit (and may actually be bad for the vehicle). I've never met one of these people in real life, but I've read their postings so they probably exist (maybe they are only in states that lack good public schools).

If 3000 mile oil changes are "cheap insurance" why aren't they changing the oil every 1500 miles or every 750 miles, and buying as much of that cheap insurance as they can get?

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The 3000 mile guys are usually old-timers not willing to change. There is not enough evidence on the planet to convince my father that getting the oil changed at 6000 or 10000 is OK. He was brought up on

3000, and that's how it'll be until he dies.

You guys must be pretty young. My dad grew up on 1000 mile oil changes & the rule of thumb was whenever it burned a quart, it was time to change the oil.

While some automakers (e.g. Honda) are now saying 5,000/10,000 mile oil change intervals, there are some that are not. Nissan, for example still says 3750 (Severe) & 7500 (Normal), this from my '08 Altima and my '09 G37. Their definition of normal also pretty much leaves out everybody.

>>>>> Filters.cfm

Are you sure of that? I had a Frontier and my reading of the maual indicated that changing oil according to the "severe" scedule was open to a broad interpertation.

Here is what was in my 2006 Frontier Owners Guide:

Operation under the following conditions may require more frequent oil and filter changes:

• repeated short distance driving at cold outside temperatures

• driving in dusty conditions

• extensive idling

• towing a trailer

• st Depending on your driving habits and local conditions, you should follow one of the three maintenance schedules listed below. Use these guidelines to determine which maintenance schedule to use:

PREMIUM MAINTENANCE* (Every 3,750 miles or 3 months, whichever comes first) Premium Maintenance is a Nissanrecommended option that is suitable for all driving habits and local conditions. Nissan developed Premium Maintenance for owners who want the ultimate in preventative maintenance. With Premium Maintenance, more maintenance items are regularly checked or replaced than with either Schedule 1 or Schedule 2 maintenance schedules.

Using the Premium Maintenance schedule may optimize the performance, reliability, and resale value of your vehicle.

SCHEDULE 1 (Every 3,750 miles or 3 months, whichever comes first)

Schedule 1 features the same 3,750-mile service intervals as Premium Maintenance; however, with Schedule 1 fewer maintenance items are regularly checked or replaced than with the Premium Maintenance schedule. Use Schedule 1 if you primarily operate your vehicle under any of these conditions:

• Repeated short trips of less than 5 miles in normal temperatures or less than 10 miles in freezing temperatures

• Stop-and-go traffic in hot weather or low-speed driving for long distances

• Driving in dusty conditions or on rough, muddy, or salt-spread roads

• Towing a trailer, or using a camper or car-top carrier

SCHEDULE 2 (Every 7,500 miles or 6 months, whichever comes first)

Schedule 2 features 7,500-mile service intervals; with Schedule 2 fewer maintenance items are regularly checked or replaced than with Schedule 1. Generally, Schedule 2 applies only to highway driving in temperate conditions. Use Schedule 2 only if you primarily operate your vehicle under conditions other than those listed in Schedule 1.

• Premium Maintenance is a Nissan-recommended option; however, owners need not perform such maintenance in order to maintain the warranties which come with their Nissan. Premium Maintenance may not be available outside the United States, please inquire of your dealer.

****End Quotes****

It seems to me the wording is designed to encourage owners to use the

3,750 service interval, but really, how many people make repeated short trips of less than 5 miles? My assumption would be if you do a five mile commute, but still drive far enough at least weekly to warm the car up, this short trip requirement wouldn't apply.

The stop and go driving requirement and low spped for long distance requirements are undefined. I suppose if you live in LA, then you may always be in stop and go traffic. While this might be hard on your brakes, do you really think it is all that hard on the engine oil? I suppose if you spend hours of time stopped and idling, then you need to change your oil more often. This is where a system like the GM Oil Monitor is very useful. It actually counts engine revolutions and modifies oil change intervals accordingly.

I like the Ford descriptions of Normal and Severe Service better:

Determine which maintenance schedule to follow

It's important to follow the maintenance schedule that most closely mirrors your driving habits and the conditions under which you drive. For this reason, the Scheduled Maintenance Guide is divided into two basic maintenance schedules: the Normal Schedule (further segmented into Trucks, Fullsize Vans & SUVs and Cars & CUVs) and Special Operating Conditions.

Determining which maintenance schedule is right for you is easy. For the most part, do you drive your Ford, Lincoln or Mercury vehicle under typical, everyday conditions? If so, follow the Normal Schedule Trucks, Fullsize Vans & SUVs, or Normal Schedule Cars & CUVs.

Special Operating Conditions

However, if one or more of the Special Operating Conditions outlined below better describes how you typically operate your vehicle, you will need to perform some maintenance services more often than the Normal Schedule recommends.

. Towing a trailer or carrying heavy loads . Extensive idling and/or driving at low-speeds for long distances . Driving in dusty conditions . Off-road operation . Use of E85 fuel 50% of the time or greater (flex fuel vehicles only)

Important: For further details and information regarding these Special Operating Conditions see page 42. ....

Items Needing Special Attention

If you operate your Ford/Lincoln/Mercury primarily in one of the more demanding Special Operating Conditions listed below, you will need to have some items maintained more frequently. If you only occasionally operate your vehicle under these conditions, it is not necessary to perform the additional maintenance. For specific recommendations, see your Ford or Lincoln Mercury Dealership Service Advisor or Technician.

****End Quote****

Notice the statements including the words "primarily" and "occasionally." To me these implies most owners are exempt.

I think the systems like GM's (and others) that use oil life monitors that adjust the change interval based on driving patterns are the best. Toyota took an approach that at least eliminates confusion - they did away with the whole normal/severe schedule confusion by just saying to change the oil every 5000 miles. Of course all of this is just for the US. In Europe oil change intervals are generally specified to be much longer - even for Toyotas that use the same (?) engines as US Toyotas. I have had people claim this is because European specifications for oil are much better than in the US. Does this mean if I use oil that meets the European specs, I could go even longer?

Ed

>>>>> Filters.cfm

The guys who write /Paradise Garage/ did a great study on this several years ago. While aimed at GM 5.7L small-blocks (IIRC they did this with a Firebird), they did a good job of combining theory with practice. They also gathered some test data.

Here's the link: <

>

I've adopted some of their ideas for my 'vette and for a new 3.6L VVT-DI engine. The only major change I've made was changing the filter more frequently than I change the oil.

1. I use Synthetic Oil exclusively
2. I top up to the 'full' mark on the stick whenever it's about 1/2 pint down.
3. I change when the oil life computer hits 30% or it's been 10K miles.
4. I change the filter every 5K (and top up to 'full')

I performed an arbitrary change on the VVT-DI engine when it turned 2500 miles. At that point, the oil life gauge was showing 72% -- I just wanted to clear out excessive 'break-in uglies.'

Note -- neither of these engine types has a 'sludge' reputation so that wasn't a consideration. That might be a consideration for Toyota owners. YMMV

-- pj

Maybe for people who own older Toyotas, but Toyota fixed whatever was causing the problem with sludge. All of the Toyotas in my immeadiate family (3 RAV4s, a Highlander, and a 4Runner) have the automatic reminder that comes after 5000 miles, so I am not worried about sludge.

Ed

Did you read the stuff you just posted (bolow)? It says 3750 (severe) and

7500 (normal).

Yes I did. I understood that the two mileage requirements were 3750 (Severe) & 7500 (Normal). What I was commenting on was the line that said - "Their definition of normal also pretty much leaves out everybody."

While Nissan tends to push owners toward the "severe" schedule more than than other companies, I was trying to make the point that the regular schedule does not leave everybody out. I should have been more explicit in what I was discussing. To be clear, I think most Nissan drivers can use the regualr schedule. Honestly, why would anyone call a schedule "Normal" and then claim it wasn't? If they meant for the

7500 mile schedule to apply to only a few owners, they should have called it "light duty" or "unstressed" but certianly not "normal." I think Nissan was trying to both claim extended maintenance (competitive advantage for selling cars) and encourage people to go to their dealer more often (aftermarket profit motive). Nissan explicitly said you didn't need to use the "Premium Service" to maintain your warranty.

Ed

I have one of the Chrysler 2.7 engines in one of my 2 Concordes. They are known for sludging up and catastrophically failing at between 60k and 80k miles. Many people learned the hard way not to go by the recommended 7500k change interval on those.

Of course it depends on the service that the vehicle sees too - i.e., lots of stop-and-go short-trip stuff vs. mostly highway use.

Mine has over 230k miles on it now and runs great because it is used on my daily commute of 80 miles total each weekday and I change oil and filter every 3000-3800 miles. Though people on the Chrysler forums will insist that that engine will not last unless you use synthetic, I've disproven that by using non-synth Castrol and 8 oz. of Marvel Mystery Oil at all times.

There are definitely some engines that can tolerate abuse (long oil change intervals), but some are definitely intolerant of that. I think it has to do with the crankcase breathing design.

ALSO - I can't help but feel that a lot of instances of engines failing due to sludging up is because more places (dealers included) than you would think actually do not change the oil or filter when the customer pays for it - I have seen that twice personally - once on my elderly mother's car, and once on a Jeep that my daughter had bought that had supposedly had oil and filter changed religiously every 3k miles at a chain, and I proved that to be absolutely false.

I've read more than one account on Chrysler LH car flrums where it was claimed that Chrysler refused to cover a 2.7L engine failure when the customer had receipts showing the oil was changed at the dealer on the Schedule A. Reason for turning the claim down: There is no such thing in the real world as Schedule A service. Everything is Schedule B. Claim denied. I can't swear that the posters were telling the truth, but that's what was claimed.

>>>>> Filters.cfm

Not entirely true. The moisture and contaminants in the oil from the short trip driving deteriorate the additives in the oil - and "drying it out" once a week does not TOTALLY eliminate that damage.

Yes it is.

The oil change requirements stated in the US are the minimum required change frequency for the oil available in America to get the car through warranty most of the time.

Cross posting left in because I'm a dork....

A look at the oil change intervals for the new Fords coming down the assembly line will be an eye opener...

FWIW, the lubricants "available" in America are likely amongst the best in the world... low ash content for diesel applications and various other requirements placed on engine oil (and other lubes) by the applications they are designed for... If one is to be concerned about "quality" in any areas - I don't think it would be with packaged lubes but with bulk fuels.... packaged lubes that bear appropriate ratings, at least (will SpamsOil ever get an API rating?).

Back to lube intervals... Many of the new and current Ford offerings have the IOLM (intelligent oil life monitor) system. Here

a cut and paste of a message we got from the mothership (missing is the page that indicates which model/engine combos have what system). Notice that SOME oil change intervals can go as long as 1 year or 10,000 miles (16,000 kms).

There's some pretty neat stuff hitting the streets these days... including the dual plug 6.2 Ford and the "reverse flow" 6.7 diesel...

I totally forgot "the flip side of the coin".... An abandoned 2006 Fusion... left on our doorstep like a baby in a basket.... 100,000 kms or so on the ticker and only two oil changes to it's history. The amount of sludge under that valve covers is still a topic of conversation around the shop...

The longer we extend the service interval, the more important it becomes to observe it...

And the more important it is to check behind whoever you pay to do them to make sure they actually do them. I've personally seen too many examples of where that was the case. Imagine being on a 5000 mile change interval and two changes are faked.

I ignore the "premium" category as mostly fluff that probably serves the purpose you suggest (dealer profit), but they have changed the names of the other two in the "Service and Maintenance Guide" for '08 & '09. Now there is "Premium Schedule", Schedule 1 and Schedule 2. It still says you don't have to follow the Premium schedule to maintain the warranty, but Schedule 2 (what used to be called "Normal") has this disclaimer: "Generally, Schedule

2 applies only to highway driving in temperate conditions."

You have joggle my old farts memory.... we get a lot of 6.0 and 6.4 diesel engines through our shop (no surprise since we ARE a Ford dealer) that have had aftermarket oil filters installed. Jiffy Lube will happily dispose of your old filter cap since the aftermarket filter comes with it's own (ill fitting, leaking) cap.

Here in Canada, that new oil filter cap (the one that will cure your oil leak) is about $90 CAD (not including the price of the new oil filter).

Choosing a mechanic is like choosing a doctor... find one that you can easily get along with... find one that is brutally honest... Be aware that he may make the odd mistake and he will fix that mistake without hesitation. Many of my customers have been coming to me for 30 years or more....

Quicky oil changes by inexperienced minimum wage earners shouldn't be a viable option in anyones playbook... FWIW - I am paranoid to the point that I'm reluctant to eat in a fast food joint where I can't watch my meal from beginning to end... (Did anyone see that Gordon Ramsay show where the fast food guy picked a piece of food up off the floor and tossed it back in the deep frier? Yummmmm!!!)

And /or the "bulk" oil used is inferior. Or the oil is changed and the filter is just given a "rag job"

And you ignore that advice at your peril on an Altima or Maxima.

Quite a few in the scrap-yard around here with mint bodies because the cost of needed engine repairs equals or excedes the resale value of the car in running condition.