from bloomberg.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid 601103&sid=aGKL743k3vDU

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On 30/04/2010 3:15 AM, Tom wrote:

How many shares will be out?
Can we short them?
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Probably not known yet. As you will probably agree, IPO of this sort is often not the best time to buy into the business. In this case, I have no faith in GM's ability to keep a string going, and -knowing that I could be losing a lot of money - will not be considering their stock.
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On 30/04/2010 9:16 AM, hls wrote:

But if you could put some shorts on it...
My guess is GM is now a perpetual corporate welfare case. As I see some bad numbers indicating we could be going back into recession or something big will happen. And if GM isn't making money now, it never will.
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I have no idea what the Government want with this Motor Werke (GMW) but there may be some possibilities. They did buy GMW because it was too big to fall and wanted to close it down slowly. Now they want to use GMW to get into new form of transport with electrical cars. There is no way they can ever be profitable but they may be able to slow down in a more controlled way and create a new direction for transport in the mean time. Then again they may have no plan at all which is actually more plausible theory. Anyway the task of changing to electrical cars is happening whether it is planned or not and who the players will be is hard to say. How long it will take is also hard to tell. It is quite a change of going from 1000+ movable parts that cost a lot to maintain over to a technology that has 4 moving parts. It is pretty obvious that the old car companies do not want that because there is hardly any profit to make in electrical cars and after the sale there is hardly any. The whole system of servicing electrical cars is completely different and demands new people. So in order to fool everybody - again - the old car companies come out with one kind of a hybrid after the other and call it electric which it is not. Hybrids are even more complex than the old cars. Nothing short of completely electrical cars will do for the future and the price of oil as well as the lack of oil will make sure that it happens rather than anything else. We are already well on the way. The battery technology for the computers and cellphones is making sure it happens and all the old car companies and service people will be out of business in a few years time. This is happening all around all around the world.
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On 01/05/2010 4:50 AM, Bjrn Helgason wrote:

Not too big to fail. Just the perception is. So the corrupt used it to bailout buddies at main street expense.
Ford, Toyota, Nissan, BMW, Honda, Kia and others could have easily closed the gap overnight.

Funny, we already have them. Tesla, Zenn, dozens of others. GM is redeveloping the wheel at taxpayers expense. And not many are going to buy a over priced $40k++ GM edsel called a Volt.
Even if you don't see the Government Marxist (GM) morality problems of using taxpayers wealth for corrupt corporations, do you trust GM to make it right? Want to be the guinea pig? How much taxes will it cost for each one sold?

Unneccessary rape of taxpayers wealth. No one would even miss GM.

No argument there. They are still loosing money.

Can happen any time it is feasable. The real problem will be trillion dollar electricial grid updates to handle the load and that assumes the power is being generated. Pretty much a state like California would need 30 additional nuclear power plants to go this way.

My guess, a century or longer. Oil still has the economic advantage even at $150/barrel and V8.

A true electrical car, not a Volt abortion, but 100% electrical does have this one huge advantage. Less to go wrong and cheaper to build other than the batteries. Electric motors for example could direct drive the wheels with no gear box or transmission. Get them serviced at Walmart for 1/10 the cost of todays dealers.
Now if they can get the huge problem of batteries solved...

Agreed. I see in 300 years an elecrical vehicle having serice as 100% swapable and inexpensive parts. If a motor goes, the computer warns you, finds the cheapest place to get it swapped out while the other three carry the load.
Drive in, Ford, Toyota, Honda, and others even use the same motor drive units and batteries. Bad motor, in and out of Walmart on 10 minutes. With standard mounts and electronics, cheap as it gets.

Let the computers do the work. A future vehicle only requires the tech to read the diagnostics screen. If it doesn't work, swp out the entire standardized computer module. In fact, users can dianose their own issues and even replace parts. "I need a industry standard right front drive with the adjustable auto alignment option. $159.". Just like your furnace motor.

Yep. And hybrids make no economic sense at all. None. Twice to go wrong, twice to fix, twice to depreciate. Complexity and not enough value to justify its cost.

Yep. Non-value added complexity and cost.

Still have to get the energy from somewhere.
Obama would have better to let GM die, and spend the money on developing and depolying 50 thorium nuclear reactors across the US. Would even be good politicially as the wad just doesn't go to Detroit but helps 50 states each with a new efficient and safe thorium reactor.
And instead of BS neighborhood racist programs, invest more in safe nuclear research for power. Maybe even a $25K household unit with lots of heat for eliminating the need for natural gas.

Nope. Far from it. Too busy pissing away resources on losers and dysfunctional politicial bullshit.

Funny, I was reading how lithium prices will make gold look cheap if we all went electric. There isn't the lithium capacity nor reserves for that technology alone. Lead acid has a long life ahead of itself yet.
There is so much hype and poorly thought out crap on the subject it isn't funny. Media sucks in the crap like a bottom feeder.
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There is a lot of lithium available so there is no risk we are about to run out of it anytime soon. The motors in the cars are so inefficient that changing to electric will safe a lot and there is a lot of other energy sources that can be used to create electricity. The price of oil is only just starting to go up so we better start going to other sources soon. Another is going in for better and more public transport like trains. Also sharing cars like renting by the hour when needed and use electric cars for the rentals.
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Anyway the task of changing to electrical cars is happening whether it is planned or not and who the players will be is hard to say.
******* It is certainly a topic of conversation lately, but in the form that these vehicles are likely to take in the next decade, or even longer, I dont think they will make a significant impact.
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It is changing more and faster now than anyone expected and the price of oil is probably the driving force behind it. Europe has put a huge tax on oil to speed up the process. India and China have only just started using cars and if they are going to need oil for it like the US then the price will go through the roof and fast.
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wrote in message news:f94fb50d-0147-

It is changing more and faster now than anyone expected and the price of oil is probably the driving force behind it. Europe has put a huge tax on oil to speed up the process. India and China have only just started using cars and if they are going to need oil for it like the US then the price will go through the roof and fast.
******* I understand. I paid $8 per US gallon and much more when I lived in Norway. The taxes on fuel and on the car itself there seems to suggest that the Norwegian government really doesnt want its citizens in private cars. Now, we have plenty of oil and gas, so they are not likely to be held hostage to foreign oil concerns.
At least they have good public transportation.
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The price of oil is just starting to go up up up
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On 04/05/2010 4:39 PM, Bjrn Helgason wrote:

Actually, it is the USD going down down down.
USD borrowing by US fed is so rampant, the stability if the USD greenback is now in question.
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Here below you have the price of oil then price of the dollar(cpi) and last price of gold since the beginng of the last century. It is obvious that the price of dollar has gone down at the same time as the price of both oil and gold has gone up.
oil cpi gold 30 9.8 20.67 22 10 20.67 21 10.1 20.67 20 10.4 20.67 22 11.7 20.67 23 14 20.67 21 16.5 20.67 21 19.3 20.67 21 19 20.67 15 16.9 20.67 16 16.8 20.67 15 17.3 20.67 19 17.3 20.67 19 17.9 20.67 19 17.5 20.67 19 17.3 20.67 20 17.1 20.67 20 17.1 20.67 19 15.9 20.67 19 14.3 20.67 20 12.9 20.67 20 13.2 20.67 22 13.6 35 25 13.8 35 30 14.1 35 30 14.2 35 31 14 35 32 13.9 35 31 14.1 35 31 15.7 35 32 16.9 35 32 17.4 35 32 17.8 35 33 18.2 35 35 21.5 35 35 23.7 35 35 24 35 35 23.5 35 35 25.4 35 36 26.5 35 36 26.6 35 36 26.9 35 36 26.7 35 38 26.8 35 36 27.6 35 36 28.6 35 36 29 35 36 29.3 35 36 29.8 35 36 30 35 36 30.4 35 36 30.9 35 36 31.2 35 37 31.8 35 37 32.9 35 37 34.1 35 37 35.6 41.7 37 37.8 35.15 38 39.8 37.4 38 41.1 43.55 39 42.6 65 39 46.6 111.75 40 52.1 193 75 55.6 140.75 78 58.5 134.63 80 62.5 165.15 52 68.3 226.4 90 77.8 526.5 140 87 589.5 220 94.3 400 320 97.8 448 310 101.9 381.5 305 105.5 308.3 290 109.6 326.8 130 111.2 388.75 155 115.7 484.1 130 121.1 410.25 160 127.4 401 200 134.6 386.2 170 138.1 353.4 165 142.6 332.3 148 146.2 390.5 140 150.3 382.5 149 154.4 387.15 180 159.1 369.25 168 161.6 289.2 110 164.3 287.8 160 168.8 290.25 270 175.1 272.65 230 177.1 276.5 240 181.7 342.75 280 185.2 417.25 370 190.7 422.15 500 198.3 513 600 202.416 635.7 670 211.08 836.5 930 211.143 880.08 700 216.687 1104
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So what you are saying is that the bankers and other related crooks are socialists
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On 05/05/2010 4:48 AM, Bjrn Helgason wrote:

Some yes, US Fed for example. Not so much the little banks, just the ones that create money but not value.
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Then GM was a socialist company because they let the taxpayers pay for it. GMW is obviously a socialist company too were the government pays for everything with taxpayers money. Will be interesting to hear when they start giving away cars for free and nobody wants them anyway.
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That may be your opinion but obviously you are confused. Some folks MUST want what GM has to offer since GM is still the number one seller, year to date in the US, dummy
wrote:

Then GM was a socialist company because they let the taxpayers pay for it. GMW is obviously a socialist company too were the government pays for everything with taxpayers money. Will be interesting to hear when they start giving away cars for free and nobody wants them anyway.
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GM is number one in no market that I am aware of.
As of February this year, #2 or lower everywhere you look. In Canada, is is #4 or #5?
GM is like a gorged blood sucker, they keep on sucking.
On 06/05/2010 10:41 AM, Mike Hunter wrote:

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If you tried doing a proper search and you will discover that GM is indeed still number one in sales in the US, year to date. Ford however is closing in on GM. Toyota is advertising, deceptively as usual, that they are the number one CAR company in the US but that is on a monthly basis and does not mean total VEHICLE sales year to date, since their truck sales are dismal in comparison the Ford, GM and Dodge. ;)
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That may be you personal opinion but it appears you are confused, GM has already paid back the loan part of the government money with interest, and the government now owns much more than enough of the new GM Preferred Stock to recover the balance of the money, again at a profit, when GM goes public again at the end of the year.
While I agree that the best way to improve the income to the US Treasury is to lower tax RATES as it did when Kennedy, Reagan and Bush did that, saving GM was the proper thing to do for the reasons I stated
The money given to GM is secured with Preferred Stock and it is worth more than enough to recover all of the remaining funds, even if GM should go belly before it goes public, because GM physical assets are worth far more. Do a bit of research before you choose to comment on a subject of which you obviously have little or no knowledge, WBMS

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