GM and Chrysler

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I am really sorry this has gone so far. Chrysler was an innovator in auto engineering, but succumbed to a lousy quality reputation, among other things.
GM was not so far behind.. GM was capable of putting out vehicles on par with any in the world, but chose to use tinfoil instead of steel, plastic instead of metal, and bullshit instead of substance.
Can either recover? I dont think Chrysler can. Mercedes couldnt breathe life into it, and I think Fiat is not likely to do anything substantial.
GM? They COULD pull it off, if they can get their production costs under control, their arrogance out of play, and their management working to build something that the American public will buy.
I have bought two new cars in the last two years.. Neither is a GM nor a Chrysler.
If they want popular support, then they have to get their shit together
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GM & Chrysler will be lucky if they survive. Forget about being #1 or #2 or #3 or #4 or #5....
While chapter 11 is neccessary for the monsterous amount of debt and fantacy obligations built up over the years, there are still hurtles for the new found companies.
1) Brand damage, you can't go around not paying your bills and welching off the taxpayer and expect the brand to be worth a tinkerbells cold crap. Many loyal customers are gone for a lifetime.
2) Quality, stuff like plastic manifolds make GM cars a joke for quality. Pissed off even more customers with $1600 fixes. I wonder whose brainchild that was? Lets face it, GM made good vehicles, once upon a time. But not now.
3) Culture, the cause of GM & Chrysler still has the loser entitlement culture abet in smaller numbers. They most likely will be back in bankrupt mode inside of 3 years even with a clean slate. Even the unions state they will dump the stock ASAP if diluted in a deal.
When all is said and done, the new GM will be a small remarketer for parts of existing autos, producing a few autos but nothing like before. GM will exit the truck business, scrap lots of lines not making money and be down to 2-4 models they can make money on if they really clean up their act.
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HLS, you should know that GM does build products the American people want to buy. In fact, GM posted it's smallest sales decline of the year (along with Ford, and Honda) in April '09. GM and Ford sales dropped around 33 percent, while Toyota's sales tumbled 41.9 percent. Everyone build good products right now. Unfortunately, not many can afford them.
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On Fri, 15 May 2009 22:22:23 -0400, "80 Knight"

I agree with you here, FWIW. My parents always had GM vehicles so that's the route I went as well all in all, we've done very well.
64 Biscayne 140k miles 67 Bel Air wagon 140k miles 73 Impala 150k miles 76 Chevette 140k miles 81 Chevette 160k miles 84 Celebrity sold at 80k miles 86 Chevette 140k miles 88 Olds Delta 88 presently 105k miles 91 Cavalier 105k miles (T-boned)
Me: 92 Cavalier sold at 105k miles 96 Beretta traded in at 33k miles 96 Corvette presently 16k miles 96 Beretta presently 140k miles
With the exception of those sold, traded or wrecked, these cars were all given minimal maintenance by my father, and always ended their lives driven very hard by one of 3 teenage boys for the last few k miles.
I maintain my cars much better, and am quite happy with the four I've had.
I've gotten as mad at GM as anyone over their gasket problems, plastic plenums, etc. but the fact remains that they've been really good cars.
I'd buy another GM as soon as my current Beretta finally dies, but GM has gotten me really apprehensive with their seemingly less than honest behavior lately.
My biggest problem is unrelated, though. I made the mistake of wasting loads of time and money getting a BS in electrical engineering. Now those jobs have all gone overseas.
Also, my mother has had a few bouts with cancer and now has macular degeneration so I must care for her so I can't work. (I accept no assistance from the government for the record).
I'd probably go with another GM if the Beretta dies, as I said, but cost is becoming an increasingly big issue for me, as I believe it has and will continue to grow for others as well.
Just my thoughts....
--
Rick

email: http://tinyurl.com/562c52
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I totally agree. I wouldn't buy anything but a GM, but I'll admit when they screw up, and with the gasket and plenum problems, they seriously screwed up.

UNfortunatley, it seems everything is going overseas.

You have my sympathies. I have lost family members to cancer, and I find it quote commendable that you are caring for her.

IMHO, you're thoughts are very right.
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On Sun, 17 May 2009 08:33:06 -0400, "80 Knight"

Indeed they did. I presume they let the bean counters get ahead of the engineers. Too much of that everywhere in this country lately, IMHO.

I fear you are spot on regarding that. It really is getting scary lately.

Many thanks for the kind words. They mean a lot to me. As an adult I realized just how much my parents sacrificed for their three sons, and I couldn't imagine turning my back on my mother in her time of need. Putting my life on hold is the least I can do to help her.

Again, many thanks.
One thought about GM did cross my mind, though. I can tell you the one thing I will NEVER do is buy one of their cars that is imported from China.
I find it sad and a bit disgusting that they have the nerve to even consider doing that.
I fully realize that we're in a global economy nowadays, and if they don't do that and all other manufacturers do, then GM will not survive.
I have no problems with anyone else buying the car they believe is the best value for them. I know money is tight and just because a car is manufactured in the USA doesn't mean it is the best fit for everyone.
However, I seem to be in the minority these days. I'm a US citizen and I would like to see the USA not only survive, but thrive.
A great uncle of mine was killed in WWI. Two others fought there and returned home. My mother's cousin was killed in the Battle of the Bulge in WWII, and my father served in the Pacific in WWII. I also had an uncle who was a B-29 instructor pilot during WWII.
While I have not been in the military, I'd still like to do what little I can to support this country so that the service and sacrifice of those mentioned above (and countless others) was not in vain.
Whenever I am shopping for tools, I look for "Made In the USA." Surprisingly, it is out there if you look hard enough. I always shell out the extra $$ for it if I feel it is a better quality product. I find that almost always it is.
Perhaps I'm a dinosaur, but I have this crazy feeling that we should look out for one another here rather than selling out to the lowest bidder. If you look only at the short term, you will lose every time in the long term.
Thanks for letting me vent.
Rick
--
Rick

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wrote:

Far too much, in far too many countries.

I find that quite commendable, and I too would attempt to do the same, if I were in you're shoes.

Ditto.
I feel exactly the same as you do. (Even though I am Canadian, I feel that the survival of both the USA and Canada rest's with eachother).

It sounds like you have a family history you should be very proud of. I too had relatives serving in WWI and WWII. Unfortunately, not many people I talk to these days seem to realize what the soldiers who fought in those wars did for us.

As I was saying above, most people I talk to these days (both in person, and on the internet) don't seem to think of the World War's as anything more then a history class from high school. Too many have forgotten the sacrifices made. Too many don't even know who we were at war with, or even when they started/ended. Fortunately, I am starting to see more people around my city realizing what it is these soldiers do for us, even if it isn't a pleasant way. I live near GM's Oshawa car/truck plant, which is also near Canada's "Macdonald-Cartier Freeway" (or Highway 401), which, on August 24th, 2007, was re-named the "Highway of Heroes". This highway is the direct route taken by the Canadian Military convoy, when bringing a fallen solder's body from Canadian Forces Base Trenton, to the coroner's office in Toronto (the families of the fallen solider are also in the convoy). Many bridges line the highway, and each and every time a fallen solider is brought home, people line the bridges, and even the highway itself. It is truly an astounding thing to see hundred's of people, flags waving, standing at attention, and saluting. These are mostly ever day people, but the local Police and Fire departments are usually present as well.

I've actually had discussions recently with people about buying what I call "home-made" (as in, Canada or USA built), or foreign products. I too try my best to find products actually built locally, and the Durham Regional Police (they cover Oshawa, Ontario, and the surrounding area's) actually use many Chevy Impala's as there cruisers, instead of the Ford Crown Victoria's, because the Impala's are built here in Oshawa. Though, I must admit, certain products are very difficult to find, especially electronics and computers. As for the extra couple of bucks for a home-made product, I'd shell it out in a heart beat. Not only is the product built here, but I am finding the quality of China, and other countries builds to be lowering at an alarming rate.

I totally agree. One reason I personally 'vent' so much when I see a "GM needs to go down, along with all the CAW/UAW losers" post is because I can actually see past the loans, and understand what they do for the nation. Like I said, I live only a few minutes from GM's Oshawa, Ontario plant, so ever since GM started laying people there off, I see the pain it causes. I see it every day, the people without jobs spending all day and night trying to find one, the people with jobs, wondering if they will have one tomorrow, and the people on pensions, wondering if it will be there when they wake up. I have had more family members then I can count work at the actual GM plant, some have been let go since GM started going down hill, and many are going out of there minds wondering if the pension they worked (and were promised) for 30 years, are going to disappear. We are even losing local businesses one by one, as each GM employee lost kills the town more and more. It was stated in a newspaper article that for every one line worker, 50 (I could be wrong on the number, as it has been quite some time) others are employed at suppliers, and other feeder plants. We need GM. Have they screwed up in the past? Yep. Have they screwed the customer in the past? Yep. Do I think they can, and will change, and that they are a needed asset to North America? You bet. Unfortunately, there are too many people who have had a keyless entry unit malfunction out of warranty (which GM wouldn't pay for), or who think GM execs are walking into there home and actually taking money from there wallets. Or, the classic "Japan makes better quality products" crowd (I saw many of them change there tunes when the front ends of there Tundra's started falling apart). Like you said, we need to look to the future, and I don't know about you, but I want there to be job's left here for my children, and not just flipping burgers.
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Even though they are taxpayer subsidized.
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GM may be building good products now, but this has not been the case for very long. Just a few years....and this is hard to overcome.
If GM built cars that Americans wanted to buy, they would have the preponderance of market share...but they dont. They have lost market share..
I bought a new car last week. I really wish I could have trusted GM, but I couldnt.
They have screwed me too many times.
Maybe in the future.
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We both know we aren't going to agree on this, so I'm not going to get into BitchFestMay2009.

Of course they have lost market share. How many companies sell vehicles in the USA compared to years ago? My point is, GM still outsells every other brand. You know I respect you HLS, but I just can't stand it when people say "If GM were to build products American's want to buy". They sell more vehicles then any other manufacture in the USA, and that is a fact.

This question has nothing to do with GM, and it's just out of curiosity (I read your posts asking about different models of vehicles), but what did you end up buying?

It is every American's right to purchase what they wish, and I don't deny that. I wish you luck with your new purchase.
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Camry Solara
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wrote in message >

Is that the 2-door convertible? How do you like it?
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wrote in message >

Yep, it is the convertible. I love it. It gets good mileage, and is surprisingly quiet. It isnt loaded loaded, but has navigation, XM, etc.
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wrote in message >

Right on. Congrats on the purchase.
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Stating GM outsells everyone is like stating you won a cross country running race after having someone drive you half way. I think they call it cheating.
If GM removed taxpayer subsidies and priced them to break even how many would they have sold?
Being #1 in auto sales is meaningless unless it is sustainable without the pocket picking free debt ride.
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What will you and mikey do when the gone out of business sale finally registers with you two big BS artist.
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I BS no one, and only use facts. To a Google search, and you will see that what I said above, is true. But, you probably won't, as that would take effort.
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Not everyone.. I think Chrysler has been building shit right up to the last.
Few people want to buy GM and Chrysler now because of the unknowns the future brings. GM has certainly had an improvement in attitude about quality, both by GM itself and by the customer.
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wrote in message

I've never been a huge Chrysler fan (besides classic MOPAR), but the last two Chryslers I drove for extended periods of time (a PT Cruiser, and a Jeep Grand Cherokee), I actually liked a lot. They were both rentals, but I liked them. The PT Cruiser is kind of like the Pontiac Aztec (you have to really like the looks to be happy with it), but I found it wasn't nearly as bad on gas as people had told me, and it was actually comfortable to drive. The Jeep, I really liked, and even with the lower engine model (compared to the Hemi in other Jeeps), it was quite powerful, and also wasn't nearly as bad on gas as everyone had said. But, like I said, these were rentals, and I only had them for 2 weeks or so at a time.

To quote a famous movie, "the future is not set". We shall see what we shall see.
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I owned a 97 Dodge Custom Van, up until a couple of weeks ago. It was not smooth, like a car should be, but after all it was built on a 3/4 ton truck chassis. It had the 318 cast iron engine, and never gave me any significant problems. I sort of miss the old girl.
A lot of the Dodges I have seen with V6 engines just seem to have a lot of engine problems. Transmissions on some series were also a problem. Body integrity was also an issue.
Whether true or not, I see some of these problems as being relics of Mitsubishi relationships.
Of all my friends and relatives, only one has purchased an "American" car recently...a Chevy Impala, with which she seems to be pleased. I guess Ford and Dodge trucks remain popular here. Chevy less so.
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