There a few in this group that hate GM and everything about it, have made
many remarks in the negative about all of GM and anyone connected with it.
Since i am Pro GM and a retired Salary worker 35 years of service and
retired 17 years now and have already lost all health care and stand
possible to lose much more, I hope your future is secure and this and
something like this dosnt happen to you.
Since GM will now be importing from china and offsetting it with reductions
from canada and mexico maybe your business will be affected also. Please
let us know so we can comment on the mismanagment of your company and repeat
the same comments over and over again to every post that you make. My guess
we wont hear from you.
But, many are amazed at how a company
with such highly paid execs,
and such a highly compensated work force
could run itself into the ground.
I don't remember any weeping when we lost
the electronics ( manufacturing ) industry
the shoe industry
the textile and clothing manufacturing etc. etc. etc....
And I sure don't remember any taxpayer bailout
except for some extended unemployment benefits.
So, welcome to modern day America....
( want fries with that ?? )
I don't agree with where they are now, but I don't hate either one.
(Although I've been a GM vehicle owner/driver almost exclusively, a few
Chrysler K-cars have snuck in and I've got to admit that I'm actually,
seriously pretty impressed by them.)
I find it slightly surprising. Yes, for the longest time GM made some pretty
lousy cars, or at least cars that weren't as good as they could have been.
But twenty some odd years ago, the Buick division was producing what would
turn out to be some really great cars. Look at how many you *still* see on
the road, and the very most of them are running as well as the day they were
made. I've got a 1989 Buick Electra with that 3800 V6 that is creeping
closer to 300,000 miles every day. Looks rough, but it runs and drives as
though it were new. I also have an '88 LeSabre with many options and they
almost all work (right down to the A/C!). Only the power trunk release has
GM is making some of the best cars they've ever made in this day and age,
but I think the bad news of the past has really stuck with them, and they
can't shake it just yet.
No one wants to see it happen but it is too late. GM corruption bailout is
digging into everyones pocket from coast to coast and beyond. And it has
people pissed off and rightly so. For decades GM has overpaid all of it's
people, wasted money, failed on critical promises and to be frank, hasn't
paid one of their own bills since last year!
Is it criminal? You bet! Wagoner, the old GM board and others should be
summarily executed for the grief they pulled on everyone. The union leaders
too, for demanding excessive benefits. Pension administrators who screwed
up! GM should have been liquidated some $100B or so ago.
Read the story about The Goose That Laided The Golden Egg. Or the Three
GM was milked dry and now it is time to die. Because to now go into the
government to bilk taxpayers accross the country is pure bullshit. Why
should my family pay for GM? I don't even own one! Should I defer my
retirement for the pending tax load GM and other bailout wankers are going
to saddle us with?
After GMs stunt with picking the taxpayers pockets, some of will never buy a
GM, GMAC (now Ally), Chrysler, CAW or UAW product again. I don't care how
you package it, I don't care who you blame, these companies are on my do not
buy ever again list. Hell, I will not even rent one and specify I don't
want GM or Chrysler when I rent.
Maybe call up Obama and ask him if 12 years of service is worth a $20M take
away (guaranteed) pension? Bet you voted for a democrat fantasy.
BTW, looks like Obama might saddle taxpayers with $100B dollars of
debt-taxes. GM was up and the rest of market was down. Taxpayers need to
revolt over this.
Losers like "Canuck", and "Jim Higgins" aren't smart enough to think to the
future. Seeing how neither will say what they do for a job, my guess is
neither have one, and figure that even if GM goes under, the Government will
still keep sending there welfare checks. Though, I honestly think there is
more to "Canuck" then he tells us. He has such a hard on for GM going down,
to the likes I have never, ever seen before, about anything. My guess is
his wife (or girlfriend) left him for a CAW/UAW worker. He also said at one
point he lived in Ontario (there are several CAW plants in Ontario), so I
also think he may have applied for a CAW job, and was denied (for whatever
reason, likely incompetence). Either way, they are hypocritical idiots, who
Actually, we do think to the future and without the GM GREED attached.
Why let the government pop $200B to debt-send-bailout corrupt auto?
Why charge it and tax our children?
Why not let GM go bust. Then others like Ford, Toyota, Nissan and Honda can
easily hire more people to make autos people want at a tax paying profit?
Why let GM keep sucking us? How much is enough? How much blood sucking?
Did GM bailout electronics, textiles and other businesses? Did the
economies collapse when RCA went offshore to make TVs? Nope, RCA is still
in business!!! And the economy didn't collapse.
Nope, GM is a rouse, bilking taxpayers, corruption on a never been seen
GM == Selfish corrupt bastards.
You have demonstrated that you think of no one, but yourself.
Why let the government pop a couple trillion to the banking industry? Why
aren't you so pissed about that?
See above. There are far more government handouts going on then GM. And a
lot are far more money.
Ford has stated numerous times (and I have point it out to you, numerous
times) that if GM were to completely fail, they too would likely go down.
Even Toyota (who, by the way, is begging for billions in loans from the
Japanese government) relies on the same suppliers that GM does. It's like
dominos. You knock one down, and the rest fall like clockwork. But, you
don't understand that, and you don't want to try. You have such a hard on
to see GM go down (for whatever reason), that you see exactly what you want
to see. You don't speak in facts, you twist the facts to portray whatever
you wish. You are a hypocrite, and won't admit it. How can you possibly be
so pissed at GM for the $50 billion loan, and not care a bit about the Wall
Street trillions, given with no questions asked? I doubt you have any close
family, but if you did, and you act in real life like you act on Usenet, I
am sure they are ashamed of you.
Offshore, exactly. Tell me, what happens when all industries go off shore?
Surely you have a brother or sister who has children. Do you even think
about them? Do you ever think about the world you are leaving them? You
seem to think it is such a great idea to let all industries/business go
offshore, but in 20 years, what is going to be left in Canada/USA for people
We'll see what your attitude is when GM starts recording profits
again...But, when they do, I know you will twist that to work in line with
your fantasy conspiracy mind.
you tell me, while you were busy designing, producing and selling crap
you didn't once think the con wasn't going to last longer than the
cars you sold ? ( burned once by gm, never again)
You have stepped on one of the biggest misconceptions about the auto
industry. There are so many people blaming the line workers for making
shitty parts, but guess what? They don't design them, they don't test them,
they only put together the pieces. If you want to blame someone for a
shitty car, blame the bean counters, who saw only $$$ signs, and nothing
Since you are retired, is it not the case that your retirement benefits are
as required by law?
Many of us have no benefits except those offered by Social Security and
plus our own savings and investments.
Why do you think that GM has (essentially) failed?
Certainly there was not a mass conspiracy to force GM to restructure; the
rules of the market are that
-if you do not provide a desirable product of respectable quality at
-if you do not keep your corporate finances under control,
your business probably will go through problems and may not survive.
Since you were a salaried worker, you probably had no choices in the
engineering, and design that drove GM to the brink.
You may well have had some influence over the quality of the final product.
probably did whatever you were paid to do as well as you could do it, and
had belief that
everything would be allright.
And I am sorry that it did not work out as you hoped. Be proGM . If GM
had been so, and had done their jobs as you probably did yours, there likely
not have been a problem.
Influx? Foreign vehicles have been coming in for years and competing
with home industries, but in the last few decades the competition
became very serious and professional.
There was a time when only Ford, Chevy, and Dodge were serious
competitors for the American market here in the 48 contiguous states.
And they still would be if it were not for some basic changes in the
Foreign vehicles are, arguably, no longer foreign.
They employ Americans to build or assembly their products here now.
They have developed a reputation for
- solid products,
- a finger on the pulse of the customer,
- economy, and
- product desirability.
American producers began to lose in a market that was almost exclusively
theirs to keep.
Nothing in life stays constant. American manufacturers lost the skirmishes,
if not the battle, by poor management planning, which resulted in poor
execution, poorer public relations, and poor economic viability.
American Motors, Packard, Studebaker, and others fell like this in years
There is no free lunch in a market society like the USA.
Back in the '50s, VW was more of a cult vehicle than mainstream competitor.
Once established, people found them reliable in spite of their shortcomings
in size and performance. Japanese cars were cheap, partly do to the
exchange rate. Longevity on some of the originals was questionable, but the
engines lived on even after the body rusted away.
US cars still had their followers and most of us preferred them to the
foreign competition. Then the Big 3 would, one by one, get us pissed off. I
never would have gone elsewhere until I felt Buick sold me crap and would
not stand behind their product. After decades of GM ownership I thought it
was time to find out what else is out there. My car is assembled in the US,
at least some of the design of the powertrain was US influenced, but the
quality procedures of the car maker shows up to be superior so far. 55,000
perfect miles so far,; only oil changes, 2 tires, filters.
departure) etc and controlled 60 per cent of the market. There was talk
among some gov. officals that gm should be split up. Rather than due that
they introduced more competition by encouraging Japan to import and assemble
cars here along with VW along with good trade laws. Honda first then toyota
and others and VW along with very good state tax dollars for infructure etc.
dont know how much tax dollars but for all of those manuf, it was alot.
Those Japan companys didnt design or build those cars here only assemble
them. The design, tools ,component parts etc stayed in japan. because of
price they started to gain market share,
GM at that time in order to compete started to import from offshore and
started to shut down the factories here. in late 70s Gm started to reduce
hourly and salary staffs. In 86 they closed 11 fabrication plants. and
moved some to mexico and elseware. there were more closings in 92
and further reductions in staffs and it seemed like it continued for the
next 15 years. Just remember the design and the tooling for these is a big
part of the automobile dollar and created many jobs. i doubt there are too
many tool builders left in this country
I know that many people say gm was late to the ball game but based on the
above it cost many billions of dollars to accomplish this. also many years.
as far as quality goes up until the 70s with model changes every year it was
difficult to keep up and by the time you get it right another model change.
From the early 80s until i retired in 92 the push for quality was non stop.
I can only talk about the sheet metal parts i worked on but i think we did
a great job. if anyone here can remember the rust buckets from the 50 to the
80s and what you see now.
At one tim while we were putting gavanize steel in the under body and whole
body dip primer, i was in a jap plant and they were only using spray on
also it is often stated the gm made cars no one wanted to buy. well thru
2007 they were the number one manf. in the world.
every country in the world knows the benifit of there auto manf. business.
most countrys if not all wont buy imports in any great nbr. all we do here
is to critize our manf and blame everything on
(BIG BUSINESS) we are losing jobs to other countrys at the tune of 65
billion dollars a month,
i think this country will have to wake up.
just to finish can i say i was happy with everything gm did NO but they did
many things right, and if it had not been for this downturn think gm stood a
good chance of turning their businees. The last UAW contract was huge give
back, maybe you dont belive it but if you could get beyond the media and our
wonderful bought and paid for gov.
maybe you would have a different take on the situation.
now time for all the yea butts, and gm should die etc. have fun and try to
Body by Fisher used to mean something.
But here is something you did wrong.."You", meaning GM, brazed the panels
rear windows for years,..
Everybody knows that dissimilar metals and water give body rot, and
that is exactly what happened.. And GM knew about it...and did nothing for
They also knew that people traded cars as much because of the way they
looked as anything
else, and a rotten body under the window looked bad and was really a nasty
was strongly suspected that this was engineered obsolescence.
at 4to500 an hour brazing was out of the question. also in the assy plant
they ran at a 60 per hour clip no time for brazing. There was a leaded joint
at the quarter sail to roof area for a number of years a while back. the
window opening i worked on were all pinch weld flanges front and rear
It wasnt out of the question because it WAS done. There is no question
about it. I started taking notice of this in the late 60's through the
There is no problem in identifying the brass joint, and the corrosion all
I spoke with a GM employee about it at that time, a friend of mine,
and he confirmed that GM knew of the problem, had known all along,
and had chosen not to do anything about it.
Eventually it "went away", but like the faulty plastic plenum, it stayed far
I bought a '97 Buick LeSabre and it's still going strong. Wonderful car
although I obviously haven't tried anything else :-)
We once entertained buying a Jap car - but I couldn't get my long legs
(This has happened before, as in my youth I attended RAF Hornchurch
with the intent of becoming a pilot. Of an initial intake of 40 boys,
16 were left after a rigorous 3 days of medical and aptitude tests. The
final 'cockpit test' in the sawn-off front end of a Meteor Jet, found
legs to long to fit in! )
Even in the Buick, I couldn't fit in as a passenger in the back. I'm
with a 34" inside leg - and I've known lots of taller guys.
Motorsforum.com is a website by car enthusiasts for car enthusiasts. It is not affiliated with any of the car or spare part manufacturers or car dealers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.