GM, Ford reputations take a hit

The difference between 1, 4, and 5, as they pertain to the VIN, define the US content. You however chose to believe something else. ;)

mike

Reply to
Mike Hunter
Loading thread data ...

You keep making that same promise to everybody with whom you disagree. Then you come back with your own opinion anyway. ;)

mike

Reply to
Mike Hunter

I choose to beleive what I have evidence for. I found the actual US Code that requries VINs, and it says nothing about US content is the actual code.

*All* of the evidence that I found, except your statements that you don't back up, supports that the reason why there are three different first digits for the VINs allocated to the US is that there are so many different vehicles, like cars, trucks, buses, fire trucks, ambulances, construction equipment, off-road vehicles (which now have their own serial numbers), motorcycles, etc., and so many different manufacturers, that the US needed more than one first digit for the VIN. This explains why all Lincoln SUVs VINs start with 5, all Mercury SUVs start with 4 and all Ford SUVs start with one even when they are made at the same plant and have the same US + Canadian content. It seems rather strange to me that Ford would take a truck. If Mike's conjecture is correct, it is also strange to me that Ford would make *all* of its Ford SUVs > 70% US content, all of its Mercury SUVs between 40% and 70% US content and all of its Lincoln SUVs < 40% US content. Ford didn't get VINs for SUVs for Mercury and Lincoln because they didn't need them. Later, when they did need them, they got 4's and 5's, because the 1's were all used up. Otherwise, explain why Ford uses so little US content for *all* Lincoln SUVs, and more for *all* Mercury SUVs, and even more for *all* Ford SUVs. Also, explain why not *one* article I read in the newspaper or the internet, when discussing domestic content mentioned the VIN. *Not one.*

Everything that I know and learned, except the conjecture of one guy who says that his friend, a retired engineer said something different, is consistant with the idea that the first digit of the VIN has nothing to do with US content.

Please provide the link that shows that you are correct and I will donate $50 to your favoriate charity. All you need to do is look at the domestic content on the stickers at the NYC car show, and I bet there is at least one sticker that shows a VIN starting with 1 and less than 70% US content. Start looking at the Ford Mustangs, which, according to the reports I have read, have 60-65% domestic content. You might also look at the Chevy Tahoe, which has reportedly has 8% content from outside North America, and 25% from Mexico, yet still have a VIN beginning with 1.

Jeff

Reply to
Jeff

I always thought the first number in a VIN meant that country the car was built in. Nothing to do with content, but where the car was actually built. My Bonnie has a '1', as it was built in the US. Trans Am's and Impala's have a '2' cause they are built in Canada.

Reply to
80 Knight

Some US built cars have a 4 or 5. Mike keeps saying that those with 4 have

40-70% US content and those with less than 40% have a 5. He said a retired engineer friend of his said this was so. Yet, Mike has never been able to provide any evidence that this is so. Nothing I have found is consistent with his view. The truth is, it used to be only 1's, but they had to add 4's and 5's when there were not enough IDs for manufacturers left in the 1 series.

Jeff

Reply to
Jeff

I'll have to disagree with you on that point, Steve.

It appears to me that you are confusing tolerance with clearance (space between parts). (Certainly the two are related when you start doing tolerance stack-ups and worst-case dimension and clearance analysis).

Here's an example of tight tolerance but very large space (clearance) between parts: Part A ID is 1.0000 ±0.0002". Part B fits in Part A, and has an OD of 0.7500 ±0.0002".

In contrast, here's an example of tight tolerance, but low clearance: Part A ID is 1.0000 +0.0005/-0.0000". Part B OD is 0.9998 +0.0000/-0.0005".

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

Reply to
Bill Putney

formatting link

No, only improper full-sized trucks.

Dave

Reply to
Hairy

My US assembled Sonata has a 5. It is 25% US, 75% Korean parts. Of course, it still may be just a new series of numbers as you point out.

This has some information, but not correct.

formatting link
They state the first digit is the country, but 5 is not listed. They then state the second digit is the manufacturer, buy my Hyundai has an "N", they say is for Nissan.

This shows a 5 as US

formatting link

Reply to
Edwin Pawlowski

formatting link

The first 3 characters indicate what is called the "world manufacturer ID," or WMI. The first digit indicates the country or region of manufacture. For example, 1, 4 and 5 are US, 2 is Canada, 3 is the rest of North America, and J is Japan. However, it is all three characters that identify a manufacturer, not just the 2nd one. For example, 1ME is a WMI for Mercury, while 1M1, 1M2, 1M3 is one for Mach Trucks. The reason why 5 was not listed is probably that 5 was added last as a US VIN, because it needed more numbers than was possible with just 1 and 4 as the first digits, because so many different companies make trucks, cars, motocycles, off-road vehicles (off-road vehicles have their own VIN system, but it shared VINs with on-road vehicles until a few years ago), construction equipment, fire trucks, buses, etc. Usually, the type of vehicle is identified as well, like pickup, SUV, sedan, motor cycle, etc. That is why there are more than one VIN for Mack.

So it is a combination of all three characters, not just the first two that identify the maker (and the type of vehicle), including the country it was made in.

Jeff

Reply to
Jeff

My experience too Mike, although I had a GM 63 6-CYL Chev II that was one tough car that was quite economical on fuel. I sold it at 95k miles still with the original brakes, clutch and as delivered engine. It did need a new clutch and brakes badly when I traded it in. The dealer noticed that and complained, I responded "what did you expect at 95k miles on the original parts". I towed a 1,500 lb trailer for about 15k of those miles, including across Canada and in the western mountains.

However it was a crude car in comparison to the cars since the mid 80s. Brakes that pulled severely to the side when water splashed on a front wheel, a 3-spd stick shift with no syncro on 1-st gear, no front sway bar to stop front leaning on corners, too small terribly weak Firestone tires that were failing at 10k miles, rubber front suspension bushings that created a spongy steering feel and one even had to be replaced as it was poorly installed and pulled the car to one side after a turn and even a trunk body seam leak. It also had poorly manufactured overhead valve rockers; three times I had to have a few replaced when they started squeaking, finally GM produced a newer design and all were replaced finally fixing the problem for good. GM's warranty costs on my Chev II must have assured them a loss on my car.

I immediately added a sway bar from the sporty model, soon replaced the tires with a better tire of more reasonable size, and replaced the front steering bushings with much more acceptable ones from Sears. The handling went from poor to quite acceptable, but after 8 years I replaced it with a much better built smaller car Datsun (Nissan), which even it had a few initial problems including a rear engine bearing seal failure at 2k miles that the dealer tried to pass off until oil on the clutch caused it to slip. GM in their wisdom of the time had made the Chev II of later years larger, instead of better, else I would have continued with GM. Chrysler left me in the cold by replacing my '95 Concord with the much heavier 300. I'm relieved that the move to smaller cars is now forcing them to rethink what they manufacture.

Reply to
Some O

You are free to believe whatever you chose, but lets apply some logic that easily disproves your 'many different vehicles' theory for more than one digit being assigned to the US, rather than just one as is the case for other countries.

Most ambulances are build on Ford truck chasses and thus use Ford VIN numbers. A piece of farm equipment, or whatever, would have the manufacture designated by the digit following by the first digit that would be different from each other and different than a car or truck manufacturer. The body, plant, engine etc., numbers would all be different as well. The digit that defines the type of SRS would not even be needed on most. If the number built, of a single manufacturer of a single model, with single engine in a specific assembly plant exceed the six sequential number assigned to those particular vehicles, the check digit is changed allowing for 999,999 more to be built in that plant, of a single manufacturer, of a single model, with single engine

Knowing that, what in the world leads your opinion that it is the number of vehicles that requires the US to use 1, 4 or 5? If that is all of the evidence, as you call it, you found, do more search WBMA. The government body that defines WHICH number, 1, 4 and 5 as they apply to vehicles assembled in the US, is the US Department of Commerce

mike

the reason why there are three different first digits

Reply to
Mike Hunter

The reason for the '5' is that vehicle has less than 40% US content, not to be confused with the NA parts label that applies only to parts.

I'm not sure of the meaning of the 'N' designation without doing more research, but the Mustang since 2005 is currently being built in the former Mazda Flat Rock plant and the manufactures assembly plant designation is "ZVF" not 'FBP' as was the 2004, built in Ford Rouge plant that now building the 2008 Taurus

mike

Reply to
Mike Hunter

Please provide web links to support your view.

That would mean $50 to your favoriate charity.

I did the research for you:

formatting link
Have a great day!

Jeff

Reply to
Jeff

But you don't understand the VIN system.

formatting link
You see, it is the first three digits that are important. Each set goes to a particular manufacturer/vehicle type (which is why Mack has 1M1 to 1M4).

That would mean that for all the different types of vehicles from all the different manufacturers, there would be at most 36 x 36 or about 1000 different WMI numbers available for US built-vehicles.

The different manufacturers include, Ford, Mercury, Lincoln, Mack, Dodge, GMC, Volvo, NUMMI, Honda, Honda motocycles, American LaFrance, Toyota, Lexus, Infinity, Nissan, Catapiler, John Deere, International, Harely Davidson, American Indian, Prevost, VanHool, Artic, Polaris, Suzuki, Motor Coach Industries, Thomas, Freightliner, Olds, Pontiac, Chevy, Hummer, Kawasaki, Suburu, AMC, Jeep, Seagrave, Mercedes, Plymouth, Chrysler, and hundreds of other manufacturers, including trailer makers. And a lot of these makers have more than one VIN, for say buses, chasis only, car, pickup, heavy-duty truck, SUV, etc.

Originally, only one number (1) was assigned to the US. Later 4, then 5 was added. That is why ISO (the people who came up with the VIN system) assigned

1 to the US, 2 to Canada, and 3 to Mexico. It would have been simpler and made more sense if 1, 2 and 3 were assigned to the US, and 4 and 5 to those other North American countries, if ISO knew that the US would need more than one.

The other thing you'll notice is that when you look at VINs, all the ones for a particular type of vehicle for a particular manufacturer start with the same digit. Ford uses around 73% US components in its vehicles. One would think that some vehicles are more than 70 and some less, like 63% (e.g., Ford Mustang according to newspaper reports). But all Fords have VINs that start with 1.None for the same type of vehicle in that brand start with

4 or 5. In addition, sometimes Mercury or Lincoln had to go back to get another WMI number for a new line of vehicles, like SUVs. So when Mercury or Lincoln builds SUVs, the VINs start with 4 or 5, even though they are built on the exact same assembly line and the reported domestic (US + Canada - I know, you claim the VINs only reflect US content) content is identical across different brands, so it would 70% for a nearly identical Ford SUV. Even the Hummer gets a 5.

Finally, if you read the actual US code (the code is the actual regulations that are written by US gov't departments required by US laws), there is not one word about content in the description about VINs.

All you have been able to do is say that your retired engineer friend said that the different digits indicate different content. You obviously didn't know, so what makes you think that a different engineer would know? That's something for the marketing or legal departments to know, not the engineers. You have not posted anything that backs your claim.

Jeff

Reply to
Jeff

Still having a problem with logic when it comes to VINs I see. Tell me from your source what YOU know to be the number or letter that is applied to the VIN for the engine in a 500? The body code for an F150 RWD and 4WD. How about a E150, or a Lincoln Town Car? How about the letter for the drive type for a Caterpillar dozer, or the engine type on a Harley Fat boy? ;)

mike

Reply to
Mike Hunter

The very crude Yugo from a out of date car company is not worthy of mentioning in an intelligent conservation. I doubt if they lasted more than 2 years here. >:)

Quite a few years I heard this story in the UK. A chap went into a car parts shop and said he wanted a side view mirror for his Yugo. After several seconds of thought the car parts chap said: "OK I'll do that trade."

Reply to
who

As long as there are much better buys than the Smart, such as the Toyota Yaris, DC will not make money on the Smart.

The Smart is inadequate as a single car for two people. Two people can't even do their weekly grocery shopping with it. As a second car for commuting it's OK, but many would find public transport better. In Canada it did sell quite well in the first year, but it's been obvious many sales Iprobably most) were commercial.

Reply to
who

How about the evidence that the first digit of the VIN has anything to do with domestic content? Why don't do you show us where in the US code this is? I've looked on the internet and found nothing to support your claim.

$50 for your favoriate charity, if you do.

I see that you have removed most of my post, without indicating that fact. I guess you can't explain away the points that I made, so you just ignore it.

You can say that 1, 4, and 5 digits mean anything you want. You can continue to believe as long as you want. However, until you are able to provide verifiable evidence to support your beliefs, I choose to go with the verifiable evidence, all of which points to the fact that the US had 1 first, then added 4 and 5 later, as it ran out of WMI numbers.

I am not going to was my time or bandwidth to reply to this thread until you start making sense.

Jeff

Reply to
Jeff

When did I ever say anything about the US code? Try looking in the right place, WBMA. I might point out you can NOT find anything that would lead you to believe your 'so many different vehicles' theory either because that is not factual. You might also look to the FTC to find the Honda complaint about Toyotas misleading advertising, regarding 1, 4 and 5 as well ;)

Please stop saying I got my information from a other engineer, that is not what I said.. What I did get from him was the place to find the reason for the three different numbers assigned to vehicles assemble in the US, rather than just one.

mike

Reply to
Mike Hunter

On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 19:20:12 -0500, Mike Hunter got out the hammer and chisel and etched in the wall:

I dunno - you're top posting, so we have no idea what you said.

formatting link
Read that, or the other 110,000 google hits for why top posting is bad style.

Reply to
PerfectReign

MotorsForum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.