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On 02/11/2010 05:59 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:


well, the "truck based stuff" includes suv's, and they used to be 50% of the market. then you have all the taxi's, highway patrol vehicles, and all that larger stuff like the camaro, impala, etc. there really is no excuse.

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All the highway patrol vehicles up here, virtually, were either Crown Vic based (RWD) or FWD Chevys untill the Charger took a bite out of the market. ALL of the RWD passenger car offerings from Chrysler are independent rear suspension. The Camaro is also 4 wheel independent. The Crown Vic /Pursuit Special is history.
SO - what is still being sold with the "horse and cart" axle is the Mustang and a FEW of the compact SUVs. - and most of the light trucks and BIG SUVs

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On 02/12/2010 10:10 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

not anywhere else in the world either. and that's my point - we are [were more so] being sold cheap outdated garbage none of the rest of the world will accept. and paying the same price for this cheap crap as the more-expensive-to-produce stuff that performs better and is safer.

agreed, this is a move in the right direction, but after 50 years of laggardly profiteering, detroit just needs to bite the bullet and move on. sure, they make more money, but horse-and-cart suspension is significantly less safe.

--
nomina rutrum rutrum

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TOTALLY not true. You Americanns were DEMANDING that stuff. Good european style cars ARE available in the USA. Good small american cars HAVE been designed and built. You Americans just refuse to buy them.
You cannot put all the blame on the American manufacturers

On the interstates of North America the safety difference between a live axle rear end and an indepdendent rear end is almost microscopic. The difference in ride is significant. On rough roads (think urban Detroit) independent suspension CAN keep the tires more firmly planted on the road, but the installation of MASSIVE tires and wheels on everything from a golf cart to a Hummer negates that advantage pretty quickly (Talking unsprung weight - the REAL reason independent is better.

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On 02/13/2010 08:33 AM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

sorry dude, that's not true. people show up and buy what's on the forecourt. detroit ships and sells the stuff with the highest margins - the crap with donkey-cart suspension.

well, frod, much as i dislike their ethics, have good business acumen. as the market has shifted away from gas guzzlers, they brought, and have been selling like hotcakes, their euro line-up to the states. gm otoh, has been trying to sell their obsolete high margin crap, and failing. they have a euro line-up they could sell here, but they refuse to do so. it's not the consumer - frod have shown that.

oh yes we can! see above.

untrue. it's not what happens when the vehicle is cruising in a straight line that matters, but what happens when it needs to suddenly deviate. in that regard, donkey-cart suspension has poor lateral stability and poor ground control. all other conditions being equal, the donkey cart is going to lose control first, hence it's more dangerous.

true, unsprung weight is a factor, but that's not the whole story. when cornering, you can configure independent to assist in cornering force, /and/ retain lateral stability. donkey-cart just can't do that.

--
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But you CAN vote with your wallet and buy something else.

If you refuse to buy the big crap, they WILL bring in the Euro stuff.. You need to vote with your wallet, not just bitch on the internet.
If GM or whoever your favourite is does not sell what you want, vote with your FEET and your wallet. Buy Ford. Buy Volvo. Buy whatever from who-ever. Ford's ethics are no worse than GM or any of the others - Old Henry's long gone (His ethics WERE defnitely questionable)

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On Wed, 10 Feb 2010 21:28:50 -0800, jim beam wrote:

Citroen had a LOT of innovations.
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cover the distance from NYC to Detroit - much less from Tampa to Seattle or Bangor Maine to SanDiego?????? In Britain it's pretty hard to drive 100 miles in a straight line. In most of Continental Europe it is the same.
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On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 20:54:44 -0500, clare wrote:

But I sure would love to drive the road Princess Grace got killed on driving down into Monaco...
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wrote:

their own. American iron makes poor rallye cars too. When I was ralllying in my (relative) youth we had a 1972 Renault R12.. On the rough roads of central Africa the American cars would not have stood up well either. Killed my '67 Peugeot too. The '49 VW stood up pretty well, considering!!!
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On 02/12/2010 10:00 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

indeed.
awesome. but that was one ugly looking car. when i was in europe, i remember seeing some dude with a renault 3.0 v6 in an r12. bet it was fun to drive!

i always thought these were fun:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:220505_simca.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Alpine_A110_1600_-_001.jpg
--
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UGLY, yes, but it would outhandle just about anything I could put it up against, and the suspension soaked up the WORST roads.. With the 1300 engine it was underpowered, but the handling ballanced things out.

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On 02/13/2010 08:34 AM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

what was the suspension config? and didn't renault have some sporty versions of their 1300 engines? the r110 had some good outputs at that capacity iirc.

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snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca writes

displacement ,high revving engines to give them a bit of power. This was because the French government of the day taxed cars by engine displacement, (cc in England, cubes in America) and not by BHP.
--
Clive


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On 02/13/2010 09:35 AM, Clive wrote:

the way it should be imo.

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On Sat, 13 Feb 2010 06:56:14 -0800, jim beam wrote:

Oh, man the Alpine was always one of my dream cars...
It just looks so damn COOL!
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On Sat, 13 Feb 2010 01:00:12 -0500, clare wrote:

One thing you have to give most European cars, they have handling down to a science.
I had a new '78 Corolla econobox, and I couldn't take one corner too much over 45 mph. My roomate told me to take his '76 2002tii one day and I took the same corner at almost 75!!!!!!!
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The generations ahead of us thought the European cars were rough riding. They though cruising the highway should feel like sitting on a living room sofa stuffed with marshmallow. A couple of years ago my rental car in Las Vegas was a Mercury Grand Marquis. It took some effort to keep it in a straight line and not just wallow along the road, but the Old Farts love them and the soft ride. .
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On Sun, 14 Feb 2010 07:47:11 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

My favorite car I have on the road right now is an '89 Subaru GL coupe. Wanna talk about driving by the seat of your pants? I LOVE it!
I also had a Chrysler LHS that isolated you from the road a bit more, but not too much you couldn't feel it.
I like that, since it gives you more of an idea of road conditions.
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wrote:

The wife's Mercury Mystique is a real road car i n the european model. Goes like stink and handles well. Almost as good as the 67? Rover 2000TC my brother used to own - a real 4 door sports car. It would not make a good rallye car though - not enough suspension travel or compliance - and not enough ground clearance.
My old 88 New Yorker had a plush enough ride, but without the wallow of the BIG american iron like the GrandMarquis/Crown Vic or Lincoln or Caddy DeVille.
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