GM steering pump recall

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That makes good sense. Thanks, Ed
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On 03/03/2010 8:37 AM, Tom wrote:

Saturn was GM for all intensive purposes. Did you ever price out a Honda Civic?
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Once again our friend Canuck57 is telling us the sky is falling LOL

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I think they are actually sourced in Asia.

IIHS/HLDI provides the data for insurance ratings. They provide it directly at http://www.iihs.org/research/hldi/composite_intro.html
Most of the cars in the same class as the recalled GM vehicles (Chevy Cobalt, etc.) don't have great ratings. See http://www.iihs.org/research/hldi/composite_cls.aspx?y 05-2007&cls=2&sz=2&sort=name The one exception is the Prius, which has very good ratings in all categories except collision damage loss, and even there is very good compared to other small cars. The Corolla is pretty good too (but not great). If you are worried about bodily injury, you probably should stay away from a Suzuki samall car. Usually the small VWs do really well, but they aren't showing any injury data for those - I assume becasue of a lack of data.
Of course one problem with using accident statistics to rate cars is that you can't separate out the inherent safety of the car from the type of driver that the car attracts. I'd guess that the Prius has such a good loss histroy because of the type of person who drives them, more so that becasue of the inherent safety of the design. The comparison beteween the loss histroy of the Camry and Camry Hybrid is an example of this. The Hybrid version has much better loss statistics. My belief is that this is becasue the hybrid version attracts more careful drivers.
Ed
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C. E. White wrote:

Outsourcing. Where have we heard that before? Oh, Chevy's "American" trucks built in Mexico-from parts made who knows where. Chevy, an "American" tradition.

http://www.iihs.org/research/hldi/composite_cls.aspx?y 05-2007&cls=2&sz=2&sort=name

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Outsourcing is nothing new. All companies purchase parts from component suppliers. There was a time when GM, and to a lesser extent Ford, built a lot of stuff in factories that they owned, but for the last 20 years GM and Ford have been relentlessly selling off the component buisness. I assume this was mostly done so that they could dump Union employees and use competitive pressure to force down the price of components.
This is not a new trend in the auto industry. When Ford first started building Model T's, virtually everything was sourced from outside suppliers. Ford just handled the final assembly. Over time, Ford brought more and more of the componet production in house, until at the end, Model T's were largely built from Ford in-house parts. Henry Ford even tried to set up a rubber planation in Brazil with the idea of providing rubber for tires.
These days instead of fighting with the management of internal parts operations it is much easier to play external component suppliers off against each other to drive component prices down.
Ed
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GM sales were up in February, Toyota was DOWN

http://www.iihs.org/research/hldi/composite_cls.aspx?y 05-2007&cls=2&sz=2&sort=name

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You need to remember that Toyota suspended sales of many models for several days at the beginning of the month. They lost 5 days of sales for many of their most popular models at the begining of February (that is about 20% of the sales days for February). That had to be part of the reason for the monthly decrease. From what I have read, Toyota sales, on a per day basis adjusted for the days sales were suspended, were up as well.
I suspect that for March Toyota sales will bounce back. Toyota is running a lot of incentive programs and they are advertising like crazy on the local stations.
I do think some of the dealers are making a mistake by running "we are sorry" ads. And at least one dealer was running the "Toyota is no worse than GM ads" that I hate. After years of convincing some people that Toyota were super special extra good vehciles, it is stupid to now try to excuse problems by saying they are no worse than GM's.
Oh yeah, and while I am commenting on Toyota commericals, has anyone seen the silly Toyota Camry commercials where they try to promote the Camry as a "sexy" car. What a hoot. They make about as much sense as if Revlon hired Barabara Bush to do cosmetic commercials. Camrys may be a lot of thing, but they aren't exciting or sexy. Mundame, dull, reliable, sensible, comfortable, etc might describe a Camry, but not sexy. Camrys have all the appeal of a well designed dishwasher, and at this point, a relatively old design as well. In fact, unless Toyota spiffs up the design, Camry sales are bound to go down. All of the competitors, and most importantly Hyundai, have newer and in, most cases, more interesting designs in the Camry's class.
Ed
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Agree wholeheartedly.. I would prefer to hear Toyota, or any other manufacturer, say "If we made it wrong, we'll make it right".
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wrote in message

The corporate Toyota ads say that. They are well produced. It is just the locally produced ads that are whinning about Toyota being no worse than GM. One dealer actually referred you to a web site where they posted wildly inaccurate statistics that "proved" Toyota was better than GM. I suppose you can pick and choose statistic to say almost anything, but their numbers bordered on outright lies. I can't see this as being helpful. Unfortunately, it is the same dealer family members have purchased five Toyotas from in the last 3 years. They dropped down a couple of rungs on the trust ladder in my book after running that piece of misleading trash. I've always distrusted Toyota's claims (well actually, I try to follow Regean's advice - Trust, but verify), but this was a new low and it came from a dealer I thought was a notch above the usual Toyota hype machine. Oh well, Moving Forward, Oh What a feeling, is it Toyotathon time again?
Ed
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Oh well,

I used to say " I would rather push a GM than ride in a Ford". They (GM) finally broke me from that arrogance.
Our Toyotas have been, so far, outstanding.
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I haven't had a really bad car from any manufacturer in at least 20 years. I guess among the cars built in the last decade the Saturn Vue I owned (a 2003 Model) was the worst, but it wasn't terrible. Well, at least until my Son decided to treat it like a military Humvee. It was not built for that. I eat dinner with a couple of older buddies once a week. One of them has Buicks (two of them). He has been unhappy with one of them recently. Apparently his power windows keep failing (I understand this is very common for certian Buicks). However, the car is almost 10 years old, and except for the power window thing, it has been dead reliable. The other older guy has an old Civic and a new Avalon. We can't help but poke fun at him about the Toyota recall (if you knew the guy, you'd know why). He seems mostly happy with the Avalon (but he finally agrees with me, he would have been better off with a Camry). He hasn't even taken it in for the "fix" yet. And he isn't really worried. On the other hand, the guy with the Buick doesn't like the Avalon (he rides in it occasionally, I never have). According to him, the seats are uncomfortable and the console is in the way. It should be noted, he hates consoles in all cars. He hasn't bought a new car to replace the Buick becasue he can't find one he likes without a console.
Ed
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To see what is a common complaint go here http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/complaints/index.cfm
I entered the 2001 Buick I have and they showed many complaints with windows not working. Two of mine had regulators go bad and it is very common.
I check the 2007 Lucerne that I considered buying and the window complaints were gone, but there were many regarding the instrument panel.
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Our Avalon is perhaps the best road car we have ever owned. It is smooth and quiet and gets good gas mileage. It does have a console but so did our LeSabre, IIRC. The Avalon may have slightly more room inside than the last Buick had. As far as the seats, I see (rather, feel) no substantial difference.
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Mine does not have a consol on the '01 Limited but it may have been available at some point. I know the Lucerne has one but you can order without. I prefer having one.
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wrote

Our last Buick was a 98 LaSabre, and I am pretty sure it had a console, but wouldnt swear to it.
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