GM Still Doesn't Get It!!!

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What's wrong with GM???
Their 2004 models are still the same junk that's been the norm for the past 10 years!!!
The only difference is the PRICE!!! Who would be foolish enough to pay the
prices they're asking for the same junk that's been available for the past 10 years?
Compare Chrysler to GM, and you'll think you're looking at ads from the early 90's!!!
How can they think they'll sell this junk at the prices they have them priced at???
The 2004 GM model line is sorry to say the least...
With GM's own confession that their vehicles are inferior to the competition--it looks as though GM wants out of the "new-car" business.
Remember when GM went out on strike a few years back; who cared because what they make is certainly not what the car buyers of today are looking for.
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Me wrote:

Reading http://www.carsurvey.org/ I see more blue faces than GM :-)
--
Regards
Dan.
00 VX SS 273 Rwkw of unforced mumbo.
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Don't you have anything else to do but cruise the gm boards and flame?

past
the
what
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Jerry Hamilton wrote:

Just kill file the turd. :-)
--
Regards
Dan.
00 VX SS 273 Rwkw of unforced mumbo.
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| It wasn't directed at me, but I read and post to the GM group because I USED | to own them, and I WANT to see them succeed. They're an American company, | and it pains me to see them being whomped by the Japanese, Germans, and now | Koreans because they're a huge bureacracy run by buffoons. |
I agree with you 100%!!
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Hmmm.. My brothers 92 w/mitsushitty engine went 190K when he got a 2002. Other than normal maintanance, an oil seal that blew in the distributor and one freeze plug rusting out it was rock solid

Attributable to driving habits, brake job technique.

Fix the cause.

Not possible for the trans to over ride the shifter since a 92 w/3.0 would -not- have come with a 41TE transaxle.

There was no such system, all 92 minivans had vacuum brake boosters.

Probably corroded/binding throttle linkage, easily fixed with a shot of PB Blaster and/or wire brushing the corroded parts and a little lube.

So did the one on my 91 Caddy. You also couldn't keep a water pump in it for much more than a year. The alternator? Don't get me started... Rear disc brakes? What a joke. The $1000 radio? I could have done better at Sams Club for $150. The oil cooler lines? McDonalds has straws that are tougher. The heater control with absolutely no options for where it could be set to blow? Designed by a child. Good thing I only kept it a year, because I don't think I could stand any more fun or design features.

Happens to all makes from that era. EPA jamming impossible standards down the OEMs throats.

Sounds like the common lifter tick that 3.0s develop when the lifters bleed down, usually caused by stretching the oil changes out too long. Either way, it's harmless, and BTW, the chevy 60* V-6 has been a noise maker on cold starts since it was introduced in 1978 in the 'oh weren't -they- great' GM X body.

He had a gun to your head?

So, the two vehicles experienced different driving habits and different conditions. Hardly a fair comparison. meanwhile, my brothers old 92 caravan is still around, driven daily, no holes in the body (Wisconsin) has the original transmission which shifts just fine after I cleaned and lubed the throttle detent linkage, and still gets mis to high 20s fuel mileage.

That has what to do with reliability? BTW, the 3.0 has ad many changes since 92.

What about them? The problem was corrected over 10 years ago. Not to mention that there were at least three Chrysler manufactured engines with solid reliability records available instead of the 3.0 Mitsushitty engine.
Meanwhile, the Chevy 60* V-6 -still- knocks and bangs on cold start until the pistons expand to fit the bore, they -still- can't keep intake gaskets in them, they still can't build a fuel injector that lasts worth a damn, they -still- have camshaft problems although it's slightly different from the 'worn lobe" problem that's been around on all Chevy V engines for 40+ years, etc. etc. etc. (now the cams just fall apart instead of wearing down prematurely.)

Okay. Sounds like a plan.
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wrote:

(92
Then why do none of our other vehicles have this problem. I change the brakes the same way and drive them the same way, if it were driving habbit it would be more consistant.

override
the
It was the 3.3L with 4 speed auto. Its even listed n the owners manaul that it will override.

Do some research on bendix system 10. There was a little electric motor that ran every few times you ysed the brake to build up pressure. Its listed on the NHTSA site under their recalls list.

and
no I maen I got ripped off because a garage kept, highway mile vehicle should have been worth more, but its resale value is way too low because it was crap.

sold
I
Driving habbits, if anything I was easier on the van, it was also garage kept and highway driven before I had it. My S10 came from a repo auction where some kid had spalled on a body lift, ran it through mud and even wrecked it. The plemon had the 3.3L and was underpowered for the van, it was constantly changing gears and reving high to get moving.

probabally
Again this was the 3.3L

fog
I have seen Chrysler minivans with the cloud of smoke behind them in the 95 and up body style so it seems they haven't quite fixed the problem yet.

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Because they are different vehicles of different design. Ford and Chrysler rear disc brakes do not suffer the terrible reputation that GM rear disc brakes do (as an example) and there are service techniques that do mitigate the problems to a large degree if the person doing the brake work has the iniative to do them.
I service quite a few Chrysler mini-vans with 14' wheels which gets you the lesser brakes, and I have yet to see a cronic problem as long as quality brake components are used and all of the mounting hardware is dilligently cleaned up and properly lubed before re-assembly.

My appologies, your comments about the 3.0 Mitsushitty near the end of your post lead me to believe that -that- was what you had.

I am intimately familiar with the Bendix 10 system.

Sorry, again due to the mistaken assumption that yours had the Mitsu 3.0. Which would have had conventional vacuum assisted brakes, yes yours was a bit of a sphincter clencher.
Then again, so were some of the Teves systems GM used.

Resale is low because the market is flooded. Flooded to the point where it's deflationary, and has been for quite a while.

I never considered the 3.3 to be underpowered, and I'd guess that there was some simple fault that wasn't properly tracked down. I have salesmen customers with these things going strong at 200K miles, but any company can make a lemon occasionaly and do.

The 3.3 is a very stout engine, basically it's a 318 narrowed down with 2 cylinders lopped off.

The cronic cause (dropped valve guides was fixed), that doesn't mean that people can't still destroy them just as they do other brands.

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The Cadillac was not the only GM I ever owned. I just picked their flag-ship to point out how inept they can be.
FYI, I've been a mechanic for over 33 years, I've worked in GM, Ford, Chrysler dealerships and one very large metropolitan utility fleet , I see what goes wrong on all brands. Yes, I think that Chrysler is better, but that is based upon observing how the engineers impliment certain things between the vehicle brands. Your perspective is based upon the consumers viewpoint which is more often than not influenced by emotion.
Either way, GM has now finally admitted that they suck eggs and have for quite a while.
Meanwhile, the complaints still roll in from Chevy and GMC full-size truck owners about spongy/goes to the floor brake pedals.... Seems they haven't learned anything since 1980 and the "X" body brake fiasco.
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complaints still roll in from Chevy and GMC

Seems they haven't learned anything since 1980

Ya, it's not just the trucks either. I had two recent Oldsmobiles (Alero and Intrigue) and a Chevy (Cavalier) which did the same thing. All three cars ate rotors, pads, everything. My wife's Escape actually has pretty good brakes, I was surprised. Between that car and my Maxima (sorry UAW), there is just no way in hell I'm going back to GM. I used to say, "well, give it a few more years, they'll iron things out and I'll fall back into the fold". I also used to get upset when someone would say, "I owned a Pontiac 6000 twenty years ago, it was a POS, I'll never buy GM again".
But now, after owning non-GM makes, I completely understand. Neither my Ford or Nissan have had anything other than routine maintenance done to them. I take that back, the Ford did have a latch on the rear hatch replaced, it was rattling. Compare to my Alero which burned oil like a madman, and Intrigue which had so many rattles SIX MONTHS AFTER PURCHASE it sounded like I was driving around in a cargo van. I'm done wasting money on crap, no more GM headaches for me. It kills me because a GM was my first car, and I've been basically loyal to them. But after getting burned three times in a row, I'm done.
I laughed at my wife (figuratively) for buying a Ford, but it was she who had the last laugh. That Escape has been a dream compared to my GMs. And the Maxima? PLEASE. GM will never, ever make a car that good. Ever wonder why GM discounts the crap out of their cars, while mfgs such as Nissan only throw you a bone occasionally? It sounds obvious, but when you make bland, boring, unreliable junk you might as well just dump all your shit in one giant fire sale. I never thought I'd see the days of $4000 rebates on cars, but thanks to GM's "yeah, we make crap" spirit, here we are. Shit, give me a Taurus. Boring, yeah, but I bet Ford didn't design it to be instantly disposable like my recent string of GMs.
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"Jim" wrote

Well, you just got lucky with your GM diesels! I worked on those things non-stop for 5 years when they came out and they were nothing but junk. Your Pontiac 6000 was a decent car, but depending on which engine it had, it had lots of problems. From a mechanic's perspective, GM has continued making crappy cars for the most part for the last couple of decades. By the way, there has "always" been a problem with coolant getting in the oil via the intake manifold gaskets on the GM 60 degree v-6's. Nothing has changed there, other then the design of the gaskets. The very first 2.8's had intake gasket problems, and the very last 3100/3400's still have intake gasket problems.
Which is probably why now that I'm looking for another car for my wife, I'm leaning towards a Honda or some other Japanese vehicle. I would prefer to buy a GM vehicle as I have access to all the knowledge, special tools, and scanners for these vehicles...but they are such bad quality I may just take my chances elsewhere.
Of course, the poor quality is a boon to me personally as a GM technician. Certainly never out of work.
Ian
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wrote:

I'll second that... it got so bad that by 1985, the dealer I worked for refused to sell anyone a new vehicle with a diesel engine, a last ditch attempt to keep the dealerships name from being tarnished.

I think my hands are still stained from diesel soot.

I have a customer ith a 90 6000 wagon w/3.1, it just clicked over 200K miles this winter. It's had the injectors replaced, new radiator, the usual odds and ends, it's getting a new fuel tank, sender, pump and straps tomorrow because he plans on getting 300K out of it and you can damn near see thru the fuel tank.

I think the 2.8/3.1/3.4 is a fairly tough engine, it's the detail stuff that usually does 'em in.

When the Nova came back in 85, it changed my mind on how well the japanese can build a car. Seems the only stuff we were fixing under warranty was the domestic NUUMI components. The three Toyotas we owned after that gave me very little aggrevation other than body rot.

Amen.
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"Neil Nelson" wrote

Towards the end, we were buying Olds 350 gas engines from the wreckers, stripping them down and having them completely rebuilt, and installing them in trucks instead of replacing the diesel engine. It was a nice little swap as there was only the throttle cable and TV cable brackets that had be jury rigged.
> I think my hands are still stained from diesel soot.
Yes, my wife hated that period of time as I would be just covered with the stuff day in and out. Of course, I did shower, but as you say, the stains on the arms and hands took a while to come out.

No doubt....I was thinking more about the Iron Duke. I loved that engine. So much to repair on it, so little effort to repair it.
> I think the 2.8/3.1/3.4 is a fairly tough engine, it's the

I agree, we actually see very few of them actually "blow up". As you say, it's the detail stuff. I'm actually quite amazed how well they stand up to running for long periods of time with coolant in the oil.

We have had one Toyota, and it gave us well over 300K kilometers of trouble free driving. I've never been very impressed with Isuzu or Mitsubishi, but I suppose that's because I saw the crap that they turned out under the GM and Chrysler badges.
Ian
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Anecdotal I know, but my personal experience with Chrysler, the dealer and their products (the overall experience deals with all of those) since 1987 has been nothing short of stellar (my purchases and those of my kids). But, I know surveys say differently, so maybe we've just been lucky. We've not experienced the situations you and your family have had with them, that's for sure. My brother did have to have the tranny rebuilt on his 97 Caravan recently though (at about 90+K miles, I think it was)
Interesting you mention trade value. The 1987 Grand Caravan 3.0 V6 (1st year for the V6 and the Grand) I bought new for $12K, I got $3.5K for it in 1997 (10 years later) when I got rid of it... Rust?? My son's 89 Dakota 4x4...not one spot of rust anywhere as you say your S-10 has...he has a '96 Dakota LE model now since he wanted a V8 and the larger cab with power stuff. Paint peeling? My wife's 97 Neon had that problem...no paint problems on any of the others (about 6-7 cars total between all of us). Ooops that isn't right...87 Caravan had a clearcoat problem after 7 years...Chrysler paid half the cost to fix it, even though it was well out of warranty...I bet GM wouldn't have done that!! Chrysler made the same offer with the Neon paint as well...but we didn't take them up on it that time. I've seen paint problems on GMs driving around, so I don't think that that is only a Chrysler thing. Current paint on the 97 Caravan still looks new.
Although I don't completely share the sentiments of the original poster, I do think GM comparatively falls short. More so in the way the customer is treated by corporate _after_ the sale then just the product shortcomings. Customer service is just AWFUL!! I do think the product is a little better now than it used to be though! Since GMs own press release says they know they have fallen short and have essentially admitted it, not sure how we can argue that they don't! Their "solutions" sure seemed lame though!!
Most recently my wife and I both bought brand new cars at the same time. I bought a 03 Malibu LS and she a 03 Stratus SE. We both paid roughly the same price...within a couple hundred (~ $17K). Much to my chagrin, the Stratus she bought is so much more quiet, smooth and pleasant to drive with about a 3-4 more miles per gallon mileage compared to the Malibu (both have the V6). The Malibu seems to have better interior cosmetic fit and finish and feels more "rough and rugged". But noisy!!! Geesh!! It's suspension noises, for example, are quite a bit louder than the Stratus making one think that everything is loose under there...(certainly the suspension doesn't seem nearly as "tight" and responsive as the Stratus' does) Warranty problems so far? Malibu had a severe leak that filled the trunk spare tire well with rain water...dealer had it for 5 days to fix the seals at the body seams. They weren't sealed at the factory at all!!! (piss poor quality control that could be caught before it went out the door!!) Stratus had the cabin blower motor fail...one day at the dealer to replace it (hardly a "catchable" at time of build since it worked fine initially). I'll probably give the Malibu LS to my youngest daughter when she gets her license in a couple of years...it will be plenty good enough for her. It's a adequate car, but I'm certainly not nearly as happy with it in comparison to what I had been used to. I would prefer to buy a US product (Chrysler now being German owned by Daimler is why I bought the Malibu). I guess I will have to just face the fact that there isn't a US-built car any more I can be happy with...sad as I feel to come to that conclusion after 30+ years of buying US cars. As big as GM is, I can't believe they can't do better...much better!!!
| Compare GM to Chrysler? I made the mistake of buying a Chrysler minivan (92 | voyager to be exact). I spent every weekend fixing that thing. It ate | rotors yearly and got worse gas milage than my parents Chevy Blazer. It was | dangerous driving in the mountains because the transmission would override | the selector and up shift going downhill and cause me to have to ride the | brakes and have them fade at the bottom. The ABS want out twice and this | was the system that the ABS provided the power assist. Our transmission had | problems shifting into reverse and when reverse worked it would bind up | sometimes and cause a big bang that felt like you hit a car ( I got out and | looked the first couple times it did it). The power seat stopped working, | the paint fell off an it had less than 100k miles and had a knock on cold | starts when I finally got a dealer to give me a trade in price before seeing | it. I still got ripped off on the trade in, but I couldn't bring myself to | sell it to someone and worry about them driving it. I bet the dealer sold | it as scrap. My 88 S-10 may be rusting out like every other vehicle 15 | years old but it still runs better that that van did and it has 170k and I | drove it hard all through college and through a job hauling equipment | putting 3000 miles on it per month. My inlaws bought a 99 Chrysler and you | open the hood and its the exact same engine as our 92, not a thing has | changes except it sets furthur back under the windshield which is probabally | why the newer van has a worse safety rating than the old one. How about | those quality Mitsubishi engines that keep the bugs away with the blue fog | behind them? I will probabally never buy another Chrysler. I'll keep my | 2000 S-10 for 10-20 years. | Eugene
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far? Malibu had a severe leak that filled the trunk

Yeah, my Alero did that as well (additionally, it also leaked by the rear passenger door, soaking the carpet).
I'm surprised to hear such positive experiences with Chrysler, but then again from anecdotal evidence around work I think it highly depends on which models you buy. Everyone with Grand Cherokees love them, Caravans are fine, but God help you if you own a Town & Country. Which cracks me up, because aren't the Caravan and T&C basically the same thing, just trim differences? Who knows.
I do think that Chrysler makes the best looking vehicles of the Big 3. I was sitting behind a black Pacifica at a light the other day, and I thought, "boy, that is the nicest looking station wagon I've ever seen.. we've come a long way since the 'Woodies' of the 70s!".
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I paid the price I believed was reasonable for my Envoy--and I've been quite happy with the results. It's quiet, comfortable, reliable, feature laden, and is the favorite of my three vehicles. (An Acura, a Honda, and the Envoy.)
I don't consider myself to be foolish, but I suppose it's all relative. I do agree that GM should improve their interiors. But overall, I think their product lineup has improved signficantly.
Joel
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Best value in the world.....
wrote:

the
past
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You say your Jimmy is solid, but has had over $3800 in repairs? On a '99?? Dude, roll me up one of whatever you're smoking! If you like the vehicle, whatever, but damn.

was
have
"Freedom
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wrote:

I'd rather push a Chevy than drive a Chrysler. As far as Jap crap...it's over-rated and over-priced. I love my Chevy Parts are cheap and its easy to fix!
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snipped-for-privacy@nowhere.com (Jeff) wrote in

REALLY? Now your what I call a loyal no-brainer.
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