GM to cut 30,000 Jobs & Close several NA Plants

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I really don't know the answer to your question. I expect it's a concept of value and quality. Ratings on quality are always very high for Honda and
Toyota. From personal experience, I know that resale is very poor for domestics versus the imports. This normally is not a huge issue with me since I usually drive em for huge miles and several years. My wife did total a fairly new Olds Achieva, and I got a fraction of what I thought it s/b worth. Similar thing happened when I traded in a recent model Olds Intrigue in on the new Audi - got a fraction of what I considered it s/b worth. All this said, IMO the cost per mile is much less for the domestics if one buys new and drives until it drops.
--
Jerry

"Mike Hunter" < snipped-for-privacy@mailcity.com> wrote in message
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Mike Hunter wrote:

You keep saying that the foreign vehicles sell for a 20%-30% premium, but saying something loudly and often doesn't make it true. I just used the edmunds.com website to set up a comparison of V-6, automatic, mid-level trim (cloth) versions of the Camry, Accord, Sonata and Malibu. I don't know if the link will work, but here it is:
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/nvc/edmunds/VehicleComparison ;jsessionid=DLL7FpZWhk9dts4HKrMGcDMwhpBQVfT2nG2tYQb2PwqwQBqrTMnJ!-827763264?op=0&tab=pricing&isbasecarlse&modelid=&styleid=&refid=&maxvehicles=5&vehicleindex=&removestyle=&numCars=4&justnter&modelId00506726&styleId00640401&modelId10505066&styleId10534615&modelId20506286&styleId20566046&modelId30506268&styleId30634257
Guess what, the Malibu pricing is mid-pack with the foreign competition. Where do you get the idea that a GM vehicles is prices way under comparable vehicles from foreign brands?
Then there is the whole resale value issue, where Toyotas and Hondas are much better than competing US nameplates.
Part of the problem is the addiction GM and Ford have to moving massive numbers of vehicles into rental and other fleets which then show up on the used car market in 6-20 months, pushing the used value of these vehicles way, way down. We routinely see 6 month old Cadillac Devilles advertised as ex-rental vehicles at local dealers for around $27,000. Pretty much kills the value of the new Cadillacs any poor fool actual bought new for over $40,000.
GM's October 2005 fleet sales were over 33% of their total volume! One third of factory output dumped into the fleets only to show up sometime soon as a glut of used cars. See:
http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId 3587
The endless rebates also take money dollar for dollar out of the value of the used vehicles the poor customers paid hard cash for.
GM's problems are vast and deep and every part of the organization has become part of the problem, management and labor leadership included.
John
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three yr old leased cars. My '95 Concord was a one year lease (only 10Kkms and over 25% off list). My friends '96 Taurus was a two yr lease. Ford leased over 50% of Taurus cars for many years.
On the other hand that quick depreciation may make no difference to many buyers. In '94 another friend had a very good price on a Taurus wagon. Here other option was a Honda and the Honda correctly pointed out that the Honda would be worth much more in 2 or 3 years. She asked me my opinion. I asked her how long she planned to keep the car and she replied as long as it gave good service. With her mileage of about 1Kkms per month I suggested that there wouldn't be much difference in value after the 10 yrs she would probably keep it. She bought the Taurus which she liked best and still has it, still providing very good economical service for her.

a fine car for rental and taxis, but not to my liking based on the 2005 Impala I rented in Sep. So so handling and an old tech non adaptive transmission.
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Get real, where do you guys come up with this stuff. Having owned a fleet service company I can tell you every manufacture offers a discount to fleets that averages between $400 and $600. To be assigned a fleet discount number the fleet has to have at least five vehicles. No manufacture can shuffle cars to rental car companies, period. Manufactures can not sell cars to anyone except their dealers, it would violate franchise law. Fleets like everybody else buys the vehicles that they believe to be the best value. Fleets like individuals must buy their vehicles from franchised dealers. To retain ones fleet discount numbers, fleets must keep their vehicles in service for one year or till the introduction date of the next years models. Ford sells around 80% of corporate fleet sales because they have proven to be the most cost effective vehicles for corporations. Unlike rental car companies, were the cars are the 'product' of their business, corporate fleet vehicles are just another 'tool' used in their business Corporations look at the total cost over time of acquisition, insurance, parts, maintance, repair and replacement of their vehicles and Ford vehicles over the years have been the best in that regard. . Corporate fleets, generally keep their vehicles in service for five years or 300k WOF because of federal tax deprecation laws.
mike
wrote:

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On Sat 26 Nov 2005 08:42:19a, Mike Hunter wrote in

I last bought a Ford in 1974; Mustang with defectively designed engine recalled after warrantees had expired - they would pay those that had had engine replaced on their own before warrantee expired and could produce a receipt. The rest of us lost not only a few thousand in depreciation but that amount again because we stupidly picked a model with a defectively designed engine produced by a proud company that felt management's bonus' came way ahead of any group of customers that stupid.
I think they really earned my "loyalty". I may wait another 30 years before considering a purchase from Ford.
I remember hearing in the old days of lunch bags left in oil pans of new either GM or Ford (maybe both) cars by employees, evidently trying to educate the public on why they should not want to buy this brand. I thought that education program had historically the most bang for the buck EVER.
--

Mike

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Heh...some people are so gullible, they'll believe anything.
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On Sat 26 Nov 2005 01:07:06p, Hairy wrote in wrote in message

Yeah, silly; especially when they read of this stuff in a Detroit newspaper with no objections apparent from the auto industry ;)
--
Mike

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I did find chicken bones in the air cleaner compartment of a 94 olds cutlass supreme. It caused no harm and I still use the car as a knock about. Doing my own minor maintanence, the car has never seen a dealer since I purchased it. It now has around 150K miles - uses no oil, leaks a little.
--
Jerry



"Hairy" < snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com> wrote in message
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Duh, I have news for you Ford no longer sells the 74 Mustang, The only Mustangs one can buy at a Ford dealer today is a 2005 and 2006. I own a new GT Convertible and it is a blast to drive and get 25 MPG to boot. There is no other convertible on the market that even comes close in size and power for the price. My GT cost over $5,000 less than what the Toyota and Chrysler dealers wanted for their convertibles, that have only a V6 that is driving the wrong set of wheels for a performance vehicle. ;)
mike

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On Sat 26 Nov 2005 01:28:00p, Mike Hunter wrote in

:) Duh, I CLEARLY stated that I am not, nor will I be, in the market for anything Ford sells now or in the future. Anything bad about their reputation was very likely well earned by them.
That they saved some money by not repairing their faulty designs of the past (and future?) may, with many other factors, very well help lead to their future bankruptcy. But in any case, you can be sure that the CEO and his future family will have many good holiday seasons to come :o I am sure statistics will show that there are many millions of customers that have not bought a Ford for several decades and will continue not to buy. I any event, I remain a deeply disloyal customer of this particular corporation.

--
Other Mike

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The point my friend is why do you want to compare what was on the market thirty years ago with what is available today? Surly you don't think the rust buckets Toyotas sold twenty years ago are the same as what they sell today do you? If that is the case I would never had bought any of the Toyotas I have owed over the years, based on the absolute god forsaken Toyopet I owned in the late fifties LOL
mike

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On Sat 26 Nov 2005 02:33:19p, Mike Hunter wrote in

:) That surely wasn't my point (or comparison), but you will never get it.

I agree, LOL

--
Other Mike

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Ford is actually coming into my look at list, with their interesting new variety of cars which are the result of their Volvo and Mazda relationships. Don't count Ford out, they are trying very hard to update their designs.
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Who pays MSRP? Go out into the REAL world of car shopping. I just bought a 2006 Lincon Zephyr for my wife for $5,500 less than the Toyota dealer wanted me to pay for the V6 Camry she thought she wanted. The important price is the total drive home price, not the selling price. One can drive home any domestic for at least 20% to 30% less than a Toyota or Honda of the same size, summarily equipped. Indeed a three year old 4cy Camry, listed in NADA, is worth $4,000 more than a V6 Taurus, but the Taurus had a drive home price $6,000 less when new. It returns more of its original investment. Just look at the sales figures for the Vibe and the Matrix. Most buyers know, that except for trim, they are basically the same car. Even with Toyotas so called superior resale value, far more astute buyers are buying the Pontiac. Why? Because the actual drive home price averages $2,500 to $3,000 less when summarily equipped. Pontiac dealers offer bigger discounts, higher trade prices, and GM has higher rebates and far lower interest rates, than Toyota. When it come to retail value, although the Matrix is rated higher in NADA, the Vibe, like the Taurus, has a better return on the original investment since it returns a higher percentage of the original drive home price than does the Matrix.
mike

http://www.edmunds.com/apps/nvc/edmunds/VehicleComparison ;jsessionid=DLL7FpZWhk9dts4HKrMGcDMwhpBQVfT2nG2tYQb2PwqwQBqrTMnJ!-827763264?op=0&tab=pricing&isbasecarlse&modelid=&styleid=&refid=&maxvehicles=5&vehicleindex=&removestyle=&numCars=4&justnter&modelId00506726&styleId00640401&modelId10505066&styleId10534615&modelId20506286&styleId20566046&modelId30506268&styleId30634257
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No One You Know wrote:

I have no grudge against union contracts. If companies signed them, good for the unions. Unions have helped a LOT in this nation's history. Unfortunately, unions in the developing nations like China, Brazil, and India, are pretty much nonexistant... which means China, Inc, can make a widget for $.25 while America, Inc, has to charge $3.50 in order to cover benefits and federal regulations.
Its a pretty sad way to watch the American industrial base fall apart.

Actually, I do try to buy American wherever practical. However, often times it costs me significantly more money, and sometiems much more than I can afford.
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On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 17:19:21 -0500, "doug"

But where is it written that people who don't have skillsets that make them broadly employable can expect exciting jobs? And accidents, for better or worse, are part of any manual labor scene.

would never gain ground due to a free-market economy. And because of that, your argument is flawed. When a worker and/or a skill is in demand, its price goes up, so wages and benefits have to rise if they want to keep them. One only has to see the wage power that white-collar individuals outside unit environments have to see the benefit of this.
Wal-Mart's benefits suck because most of its employees are classified as part-time. And no executive ever feels the pain that the worker feels, no matter what.
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Wal~Mart benefits do not SUCK. Hell my wife works for Wal~Mart . 16.75 Hr. Health / dental / visual, Incentive checks, two weeks vacation, one week personal time. Holiday pay, company sponsors events for the employees. If your a member of a volunteer organization you can fill out a paper and get money ,time and items donated to the organization. 4 day work week. Safety bonuses.
As for the stores. They employ a LOT of folks who others would not. They also like to provide entry level jobs that even ex union folks can handle.
-
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The unions are sponsoring a lot of negative press against them because they failed to organize them. I also know an individual that worked for them a number of years and was very pleased with the experience.
--
Jerry


"Steve W." < snipped-for-privacy@what.com> wrote in message
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I have never owned a foreign make automobile, and have driven mostly Chrysler products my entire life, but I can comment on what I observe with this newgroup when it comes to GM cars.
It seems that there are many repeatable design flaws that show up on the usenet like crazy with GM cars. To be specific, Impalas seem to have consistent ISS issues, water leaks, funky BCMs, engine cradle squeeks and pops, and plastic intake manifold failures/leaks. This is not caused by assembly line workmanship (ie unions), but rather poor design engineering management. YES, all cars have design flaws, including the Japanese, but the GM of yesteryear would not have allowed this kind of car in the public domain. This is why they must learn to live with shrinking market share.
My first GM car is a 2001 Impala LS. For the money, it has been very satisfactory, but I still am disappointed that many design flaws are reminding me that there are better cars available.
With my Chrysler car experience, I accepted the fact that they were much cheaper cars then the competitation, therefore, I understood a lower reliability rating. With the year old poor resale of a Chrysler product, you can get a very nice car for the price of a KIA, and even with the reduced relibily, they are good cars for the money.
IF GM wanted to improve, they could, but they won't. American management style will not allow the changes required to compete in a global market. Therefore, GM is shrinking, and learning to be profitable with less market share, which keeps management and Wall Street happy, and that is all that matters.
Have a nice Thanksgiving.
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I figure the main reason is because the unions are losing members and workplaces and many of the new places are non union. The big shots in the unions are losing money because of it so they are trying to attach themselves to a new tit. I don't figure it will be that long before unions are gone completely and people who are used to having jobs due to "seniority" will have to prove they can actually do a job.
It's a lot like the teachers unions that fight merit based pay tooth and nail because it means MANY of thier members will be very low paid. Want to know the real reason that many other countries have much better education, they do not allow unions.
--
Steve Williams

"Jerry" <NoSpam@???.??.com> wrote in message
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