GM to pay in coolant repair cases

Page 2 of 4  
wrote:


Ahhh... you need to take a look at my 2002 Monte Carlo..... Purchased new.
about 6 months after purchase, moisture got behind a piece of body trim, froze and pushed it away from the body. Covered under warranty, I pointed it out to the dealer body shop guy... he said... you'll need to leave the car for a week to get it replaced.
Rear tailight assy... has 3 plastic studs... I noticed mine was loose a few months after picking it up from the dealer (should have checked it beforehand ) one stud was broken off.
It now has 57 K on it.... my remote door locks don't work, 12volt accessory plug ( aka cigarette lighter ) doesn't work, and the lower intake manifold gasket requiress replacement. This is on a 5 year old car driven slightly over 10K miles per year and kept garaged. What's wrong with the picture.
Now I'll have to admit, my cars don't get all that much driving or abuse and they are kept garaged. Also located in the mid-eastern states... we're not in the rust belt or the flood zone, or the oven zone. Kinda mild and temperate. So it's not under extreme weather or off road conditions like you see in all those commercials on TV.
I also have a 1990 Olds Silhouette... almost 18 years old with ONLY 120 K miles which is slightly less than 6.5K per year. Let's see... hmmm
not counting normal maintenance items... tires, brakes. fluid changes
two alternators        600.00 repair power steering hose 400.00 repair rack and pinion        1000.00 repair two water pumps 400.00 repair Intake manifold gasket replacement 800.00 repair
current problems and those not fixed...
blower motor, not working... might be motor, might be control panel. wiper bearing shot, motor control board stops wipers in mid-stroke. heat core started leaking two years ago... I haven't bothered to replace it. rear door latch broken... already replaced once oil leaks from somewhere... haven't figured this one out... might be a valve cover.
At 120K this APV is ready for the junkheap.
my girlfriends 1994 Buick Regal....55 K bought new..seldom used...
not counting normal maintenance items... tires, brakes. fluid changes
alternator                250.00 repair upper manifold replacement        800.00 repair air conditioner switch            300.00 repair
My neighbors have honda's and toyota's and volvo's which take a beating (they're soccer mom's with mid size families whose husbands commute in gridlock traffic everyday....)... They give me their deepest sympathy for owning GM cars... they truly feel pity for me.... Their cars work... mine don't simple as that.
My girlfriends former car was a 1984 Honda... bought new and owned until 2002 (which was her daily commute car in a gridlock city where nothing moves ).
not counting normal maintenance items... tires, brakes. fluid changes, which she never did anyway unless absolutely necessary
After 18 years
Wheel Bearing 300.00
This tells me a lot.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

It tells me a lot too. Your a moron. If you don't like GM's, why do you keep buying them? Just to you can bitch and moan about it? Get a life.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Could be you got a lemon, there is one in every batch.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Hi!
(tale of Monte Carlo woe snipped)

I think you got a lemon...!

There's more to the story here. Was this work all done at the same place? Did you do it yourself?
I find it hard to believe that any of the parts could possibly have cost that much! Labor gets expensive quickly if you have to pay to have something done. (It's my opinion that this is especially true at dealerships. Other folks may disagree with me on that.)

I've got a 1990 Lumina Eurosport sitting in my yard that may need to have them done. As much as I may not want to, the car is in really good shape otherwise, runs fine and I'll probably learn something in the process.

If all the speeds don't work, it's probably the motor. Missing speeds are most likely a result of a bad resistor pack.

Instructions for fixing this are readily available. They've been posted to alt.trucks.chevy many times in the past. If you have a soldering iron and some hand tools, you can really fix it.

I've heard of this being a problem on many mini-vans.

Oh, I don't know...if you didn't mind digging into it and spending a little time and money, it could be fixed.

I believe very strongly in the concept that some car maker's products and people don't get along well. ;-)
I've worked on a lot of vehicles over the years, and there are things I like and hate about many popular cars. On the GM front, I think very highly of most of their powertrain setups. I'm not so thrilled with how they rust or the way some things are a real trick to work on. More than one late-80s Buick has been here and running/driving great while the body was rusting off of it. I've got one here now that hasn't seen the best of care over the years, and the body is really rusty, but the powertrain is still strong at over 250,000 miles.
William
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Fri, 04 Apr 2008 00:59:02 GMT, "William R. Walsh"

I think I got a pain in the ass car. Along with a pain in the ass dealer. It's like, hey guys I really don't want to rent a car for several days and travel back and forth, while you figure out how to replace a simple piece of body trim.

First alternator was done by a mechanic.... I did the second one myself.
The Rack and Pinion and power steering hose were both done by the same place. Unexpectedly, I brought the van in to have a inner tie rod end replaced. (no flats so it could not be removed while on the vehicle). The mechanic mentioned that when he pulled off the boot, there was fluid leaking, so he changed the rack and pinion. 1 grand worth of work. Not something I was ready to learn while laying flat on my back in the drive.
About 2 months later, the van is losing PS fluid... leaky hose by the crimp joint. I couldn't get in there with a wrench while lying on my back... so back to the garage it went. another 400.00 shot.

We're talking about 125.00 an hour shop time PLUS another 10% of the bill goes to shop charges... ( usually capped at $50.). Personally, I think a mechanic deserves to make a living... some of these systems are pretty complex. Having to constantly learn new skills, repair complex problems and deal with irate people. That's gotta be worth something. A pretty fair percentage of that amount also goes to TAXES... the shop owner pays taxes, the mechanic pays taxes...and YOU get to give them the money needed to share the money with Uncle Sam. I wonder... all told how much money actually goes to taxes. Probably a lot when you consider Fed / State / Local / FICA this is before rent, insurance, supplies, utilities and coffee for the customer. I don't think a lot of that $125.00 goes to the mechanic, plus he probably makes out on some jobs and loses out on others depending upon how often he beats the ' book '.

My previous Lumina APV had the same problem... replaced that one twice.

Forgot to mention the transmission 'chatter' and the broken door latch. Also, it's a 3 speed. Hell on gas.

No idea whatsoever..... I do have a lot of familiarity with the 3.1's and 3.8's so fixing them is occasionally easy. My daughter is driving an MR2 which can be a PITA to work on due to the very tight, cramped conditions.

Thankfully there are many people here on alt.gm who have willingly and unselfishly given me a lot of advice and direction.... Shep, Ian, Mike Marlow, HLS and Steve W. just to name a few.... I am very grateful to them as they've taken the time to explain why as well as what to do in many instances. That's what keeps auto repair fun.... being able to continue learning... and fixing more than you break. In a way... these guys keep me motivated by their tremendous knowledge and expertise.
As a result I've been able to tackle a lot more of the jobs, thanks to the help and support recieved from this newsgroup.
The prices are real, the labor was darned expensive..... and you can see how much it is possible to save by DIY'g. Some things I'd like to try in the future are replacing a rack and pinion, replacing a half axle, and maybe rebuilding a transmission and engine. Just don't want to learn them on an APV.
Peter
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
<Peter> wrote in message

That's a pricey shop rate. Around here in CT it is closer to $65 to $75. Shop charges are 2%. IMO, shop charges should be built into the price and not a separate line item to bleed a little more money from you.
I do remember being in New York City about 18 - 20 years ago and a BMW dealer had a rate of $98 back then so I imagine it is up at least 25% in that time.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
That is pretty high labor rates. My dealer (in the Dallas metro area) just raised their rate to $95 per hour a couple of weeks ago, and that is still lower than some independents I would not allow to change my oil. Roy

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
ROY BRAGG wrote:

Keep in mind that regardless of the shop rate the hired mechanics don't make ANYWHERE near that amount. Most of the shops around here pay between 16-22 bucks an hour to the guys doing the wrench work.
Now consider that most of them also have to supply their own tools, along with buying some of the special tools for odd vehicles and probably their own scan tool as well. That can kill $15,000.00 REAL easy. Unless you work out all the tricks and ways to beat book time on a job you won't be making much money.
--
Steve W.
Near Cooperstown, New York
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

But some guys can pull down 50 to 60 hours pay in 40 hours by beating the book.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

True, but they are few and far between. Plus you want to be sure that, although they are working fast that they are doing a good job as well. I've seen a few that work real fast that I wouldn't trust to work at a Jiffy lube.
--
Steve W.
Near Cooperstown, New York
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

All I can say is my mom drove a 85 Camry that had problems until she dumped it at 80k miles and bought a Chevy. My brothers wife drives a Mazda from a new purhase that has had 2 transmissions before 100k miles.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Fact is, every brand of car has it individual vehicles that perform poorly and every brand has some that go for many miles with no problems. Overall, the typical car today is far superior to the typical car of years ago, no matter who made it or the country of origin.
I bought my first non-GM car in many years because I was unhappy with my present one, but that certainly won't fix the old one or absolve the new one from problems. I was not happy about rebuilding the transmission, but, that is the first time in 46 years of driving that I'd had to do a serious repair on a transmission.
If you compare the cars of the '50s and '60s that we grew up with and still love the styling, they were poorly built and had very high routine maintenance. Clean your plugs at 5,000 miles, replace plugs, points, rotor at 10,000 miles. Oil change and chassis lube at 2000 miles. Common to do a ring job at 50,000 miles, maybe bearings too. Muffler was good for a couple of years and flat tires a few times a year.
Once you got the new car home from the dealer you started a list of things for the dealer to repair under warranty. Common to have 10, 20, or even more items on that list. Of the last four cars I bought new, one has one defect from the factory, another had none for six months, the other had none for a year, my present car has none on 18 months and 34k miles.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Mike Marlow wrote:

You mean the minor fact that it was a change in the gasket material mandated by federal laws on asbestos that caused the entire problem for the auto industry.

Or they had NO choice in the matter and followed the law.

Tens of thousands of cars out of tens of MILLIONS of cars running Dex-Cool.

The real problem is NOT the Dex-Cool. Never has been. If it was the coolant that was a problem why don't ALL the vehicles using it show problems? The problem is and always has been a result of the gaskets going bad. That is why GM started using a redesigned gasket that eliminates the problem.
--
Steve W.
Near Cooperstown, New York
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I agree, Steve..I dont think the DexCool destroyed gaskets either, although I dont think it is the best coolant that could have been used, with respect to engine corrosion.
There was a problem with the gaskets. Other motor companies did not seem to have this level of problems, and that indicates to me that it was something more than just the problem with gasket changes. The mechanical aspects of those engines' mating surfaces and assembly have been suspected.
Whatever the factors, GM has some responsibility in the matter.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

But these engines aren't suffering from corrosion problems until the gaskets fail. And it's not so much corrosion problems after the gaskets fail, it's the coolant oxidizing, clumping/coagulating causing problems like plugged heater cores.

Who else uses the gasket design like GM uses on their V engines?
The mechanical aspects of

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

That is part of the overall process, Aarcuda. Aluminum is not so well protected by this sort of technology. Corrosion of iron can lead to the formation of insoluble organic acid "soaps" that are slimy, shoeleather gunks. And it doesnt take much corrosion to set off this situation.

I dont know who else does. Apparently few to none, since other companies did not have the problems GM did, it seems. The lack of asbestos in those gaskets was claimed to be the main factor for their failure, but of course Ford and Chrysler would have been bound by the same laws. So, that is not the best excuse. The silicone beads are more likely the cause, whether it happens by product quality or installation or even mechanical design. I have opened "good", relatively low mileage, engines and have found those silicon prepped areas to be on the point of failure. I contacted the aftermarket gasket manufacturers about this several years ago, and Felpro did answer that they knew of the problem and were working on gaskets to solve it. I believe, in fact, they came out with the improved gaskets which mitigated the problem.
Whether this was planned obsolescence, bad engineering and materials selection, or just an unlucky star for GM, one expects better from any prime American company. Buy a Yugo, you get a Yugo.
GM has documentably a long history of allowing problems to continue in their line of cars. These are problems or defects they KNOW about, but choose not to do anything about. We have been over them before...You know what they are.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
"The real problem is NOT the (the gaskets.) Dex-Cool. Never has been. If it was the (the gaskets) that was a problem why don't ALL the vehicles using (the gaskets) show problems? That is why (the gasket manufactures) started using (the proper materials in the) gasket that eliminate(d) the problem." ;)

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

No one but you have ever suggested it was the gasket that was the fault. It was the gasket that failed, causing the problems. That was a GM design issue. Exactly what the design flaw or flaws were, I don't really know. The point remains that GM stood alone in the line up of manufacturers that had such a long running design, complete with its known problems.
--

-Mike-
snipped-for-privacy@alltel.net
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
What color I the sky in you world? Ask any of the Toyota, Ford, Chrysler, VW and Honda etc. owners that had a gasket problems, for years after asbestos was banded, if they think GM was the only manufacturer to suffer losses, because the gasket manufacture failed to meet the vehicle manufacturers design specs for the gaskets they made for ALL of those afore mentioned vehicle manufactures.
You might want to ask the insurance companies, for those gasket manufactured, why they paid 80% of costs for those losses if it was a GM "bad gasket design" that was the fault L
OL

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Ah - more of Mike's irrelevant distractions. So Mike - how long did those gasket problems persist for Toyota, For, Chrysler, VW and Honda? It's no small wonder you stay stuck in the mode of repeating the same mantra over and over again - you really do fail to grasp the points being made by other posters.
--

-Mike-
snipped-for-privacy@alltel.net
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Related Threads

    Motorsforum.com is a website by car enthusiasts for car enthusiasts. It is not affiliated with any of the car or spare part manufacturers or car dealers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.