GM U.S. July sales down 19.5 percent, Honda up 10.2%

According to the news tonight, Toyota is #2 for July, passing Ford.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in news:pdRzg.418$ snipped-for-privacy@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net:

surprises me, since Toyota cars are so bland and boring and ugly. Give me a Taurus, Windstar, Superduty, or F100. But hell, whatever. People have shitty taste. That's why we have that turd Bush in the White House.

Confrimed in the Business section of our paper today -- "July vehicle sales rise for Toyota and Honda..." GM sales were off 31.2% for trucks and cars down for 2.7%. Chrysler was downs 40/23.5 percent respectively. So even their cars present sales problems.

Toyota and Honda sales are bolstered by the midget cars that are in vogue today. GM and Ford do not offer midget cars. Seems to me that is temporary. Midget car buyers are not generally the average US new vehicle buyers that buys a new vehicle every three or four years. Fords hit was the F150, but it is end of the model year. Major F150 buyers will soon be buying 2007s, not leftovers.

mike hunt

People are nervous. They are, perhaps temporarily, thinking economy. Soaring gasoline and associated energy costs are making reasoning people shake their heads in disbelief.

The stock market is making people question the whole economic system and the wars in the Middle East are not helping either.

Predictions were published the other day, and I dont remember really where, that Toyota will overtake GM for the world market in the next couple of years. Predictions dont mean anything, though, and we can wait and watch.

Overtaking GM worldwide is more of a possibility than in the US. GM and Toyota do not necessarily compete in the same small markets around the world. The Japs have a better economies of scale in the small and midget cars, as well. As Toyota starts to sell vehicles in the US in the million rather than in the hundreds of thousands, as it has for a long time, more of their not so good ones are starting to come to the surface. Over time that will erode the buyers perception of their so call superior quality. Anybody in the business knows that Toyotas vehicles are no better on average than any other manufactures vehicles.

mike hunt

You are the master of SPIN Mr. Hunt. Perhaps you should be working in PR or as a government Press Secretary.

Yes the market has moved to more fuel efficient vehicles, and no, the US makers are not strong either in product or brand image with regard to said fuel efficient vehicles.

Ford and GM lived high off the great 1990s truck boom, but that fad is over and is not likely to come back. Large trucks are likely to fall back to the 20-25% of the US market they enjoyed for many decades and away from the ~50% level of the 90s and early 00s. Fads come and go, it is their nature. This fad is over and the US makers are caught with their collective pants down, again.

John

You are entitled to your own opinion but I am simply stating facts. Actually the fuel economy of the comparable cars and trucks that both GM and Ford have to offer are as good, or better. than import brands. Where they fall short is in the midget car class where the do not generally offer a competitive vehicle. When one considers the drive home price difference between the domestics and most imports, the domestics have the advantage for an astute buyer. One need prepay for their fuel by spending an extra 20% or

30% to get a few more MPG. The Koreans do a far better job of fuel economy for the price than the Japs. Both GM and Ford have more vehicles that get 30 or more MPG than any of the imports.

mike hunt

I don't understand your comment. Given the choice between a Camry and a Taurus, I find them both bland and boring, but one has a good reliability record and the other has a reputation for eating transmissions like potato chips. I don't have to wonder about the "taste" of the buying public at all for making decisions like this. Even the 500, which is by all reports a hell of a lot better car than a Taurus, is practically coma-inducing to look at. Really, only Chrysler is making any interesting American cars anymore, but I'm not tempted by any of them as they're all fairly large and automatic-only.

nate

What you call the "midget class," oh top posting one, is the class of the future, at least until some kind of technological breakthrough allows us to move away from fossil fuels. The US mfgrs. should have known this but instead of planning long term, they've been milking the SUV craze while it lasted, and now they're paying for it. You're also completely disregarding reputation for quality, which is indisputably in favor of the imports. One thing that you got right in your post is that the Koreans are likely going to make a strong showing over the next couple years.

nate

Mike Hunter wrote:

Stop, you're killing me. Only a very few mfgrs. have the same reputation for reliability and durability as Toyota. Really only Honda has the same kind of "halo" although I am partial to VW myself (but their shitty dealer network and past issues with poor quality outsourced components has tarnished their reputation among the general public.)

Anyone that can say with a straight face that there is no difference in quality between vehicles is quite simply ignorant. If that were true, we'd all just buy the cheapest car we could. Simply test driving a cross-section of the various cars in any given class will show up great differences in fit and finish, material quality, etc. etc. etc. and to disregard this is idiotic. Most people realize this, and try to strike some compromise between quality and price.

nate

If what you are saying is true, the Pinto, Vega, Horizon, and other little crap boxes would still exist. I heard your words many times in the past, but it was only temporary.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in news:oubAg.764$ snipped-for-privacy@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net:

The Omni/Horizon were decent cars. They had the 2.2 4 banger -- great little durable engine. Small cars get bad reps for being junk, unreliable. Usually it was lack of maintenance. People who buy cheap cars tend not to maintain them as well as more pricier cars because of the cheap initial cost of the cars and that these economy car buyers tend to be of a lower socio-economic class. A lot of Yugo buyers never bothered to change their oil and would have the Yugos with their seized engines towed to the dealer angrily demanding a new engine and when told no, replied "you expect me to change oil on a $3900 car!?" But the Yugo engine is actually a bulletproof, reliable, easy to maintain engine.

Interesting, in an ugly sort of way. I'll take a used Pinto rather than drive one of those big oversized grilled, tiny window things. I'm amazed that anyone actually pays money for them. Kind of feel sorry for the people that actually have to sell them. The big ass Chrysler looks like a locomotive that got lost when it is coming at you.

True, but they are at least RWD and V-8 powered, which is what used to set American cars apart from everyone else. Now front engine/RWD sporty cars are pretty much BMW's territory, unless you want to talk about sports cars like the 'vette, S2000, Miata, etc. Wouldn't it be great to be able to buy a new Nova or Cutlass?

nate

well, the Fox-body certainly lasted long enough... I think that had some Pinto genes in it, no? the Vega was a POS from the get go though, although it certainly was a sharp *looking* little car. Too bad GM didn't see fit to put an actual engine under the hood instead of the grenade they stuffed in there. You forgot to mention the Chevette as well, which was another GM compact that simply disappeared off the roads almost as soon as it was discontinued. The Horizon was a poor imitation of the Rabbit...

meanwhile, up until very recently, any of the import brands offered just the kinds of vehicles that you sneer at. Now that fuel prices are going up, they're bringing over some of the smaller models (Yaris, etc.) to fill the gap left when they moved their existing models upsized and upmarket.

nate

(still miss my old VW Scirocco... couldn't kill the damn thing even at

240K miles, and it would get close to 30 MPG if you could keep your foot out of it. Sold it because I thought I wanted a new car, that was dumb. Can I have it back now please?)

No offence, but I wouldn't buy one of those small cars if I was paid too. I drive a Bonnie. It is a supercharged 3.8L V6 and *still* get's almost 30MPG on the highway. She will move fast, she looks great, and is safe as safe can be. If small cars are the 'future' you wish to see, then I want no part of it and will keep my Pontiac.

That's your prerogative, and I can't really fault you for the choice because the 3.8 is probably one of the best engines GM has made in quite a while. I just prefer something lighter and more nimble, and I don't worry about what most people think of when they say "safety" i.e. passive safety features - I prefer to drive defensively and rely on the handling/braking/acceleration of the car to keep me from wrecking. Been working for me so far... (knocks wood) this is why there are different kinds of cars on the market; you'd probably think my old 944 is too loud, rides too stiff etc. but it makes me happy to drive it :)

I don't really *want* to see any particular automotive future (although if it includes more sports cars, I'm totally OK with that) but the truth is that we're never going to see sub-$1 gasoline ever again, and maybe not even sub-$2. I'd be happy with sub-$3 right now...

nate

80 Knight wrote:

It's my personal favorite. I have had two Series I's and am now on my second Series II (all in different cars, of course :-P). Love(d) all of them.

I take my sister's '03 Grand Am GT out every now and then, and with the 3400 RamAir, the GT package, and the smaller size, it is a beautiful car to park, and zip around town in. I personally, wouldn't really want a car even that small. Grand Prix's/Intrigue's/Regal's are about the smallest I would buy.

I agree with that too. You can have the safest car in the world, but if you can't drive worth crap, its not much good to you.

I had an '82 Trans Am once. It was damned small on the outside, but I could sit in the engine bay while working on it. The ride sucked, but she could turn on a dime.

When I got gas last night, it was 119.9 a LITRE, here in Ontario Canada. That was for the 91 octane, but even the regular 87 was well over a dollar. I do see your point though. As gas prices rise, I may one day want a smaller car. I just don't want to be forced into doing that.