GM U.S. July sales down 19.5 percent, Honda up 10.2%

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Ya right LOL
mike hunt


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Mike Hunter wrote:

That's odd, I've seen quite a few B210s done up for vintage racing.
nate
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Perhaps, with all new drive trains, but not originals at old car shows ;)
mike

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Rebuilt, maybe, but not non-Datsun.
How many '65 Mustangs still have original, unrebuilt engines?
nate
Mike Hunter wrote:

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I have one of those as well. ;)
mike hunt

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N8N wrote:

Just remembered, I've seen a couple of those little Datsun 2-seat convertibles (pre-Z car) nicely restored as well. At least one at each of the last couple local car shows I've been to.
nate
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No offence, but I wouldn't buy one of those small cars if I was paid too. I drive a Bonnie. It is a supercharged 3.8L V6 and *still* get's almost 30MPG on the highway. She will move fast, she looks great, and is safe as safe can be. If small cars are the 'future' you wish to see, then I want no part of it and will keep my Pontiac.

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That's your prerogative, and I can't really fault you for the choice because the 3.8 is probably one of the best engines GM has made in quite a while. I just prefer something lighter and more nimble, and I don't worry about what most people think of when they say "safety" i.e. passive safety features - I prefer to drive defensively and rely on the handling/braking/acceleration of the car to keep me from wrecking. Been working for me so far... (knocks wood) this is why there are different kinds of cars on the market; you'd probably think my old 944 is too loud, rides too stiff etc. but it makes me happy to drive it :)
I don't really *want* to see any particular automotive future (although if it includes more sports cars, I'm totally OK with that) but the truth is that we're never going to see sub-$1 gasoline ever again, and maybe not even sub-$2. I'd be happy with sub-$3 right now...
nate
80 Knight wrote:

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If we, as consumer, keep the demand for oil (in any form) up, prices will stay up. Smaller cars are only a portion of what must be done. Cut use by 5% to 10% and prices will drop over night. But no one want to be first, no one wants to be inconvenienced.
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wrote in message

I can't really agree with that. I think it doesn't really matter if we all drove Sunfire's, or each company's version of it (Honda's Civic, etc), gas would still be where it is now. They know we need it, and that we will pay for it.

I don't see that happening at all. See above. They know we need it, and they will charge whatever they want.

I can agree with that. I myself, don't use much gas at all. I mainly stay in-town, and when I go out, I usually wait until more people have to go out, and we all go in one car, at the same time (I live with 5 other family members and friends).
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> On 8/3/2006 2:02 AM ... 80 Knight wrote:

Clearly you need to read up on how commodities markets work.
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We are all entitled to our opinions I guess. What makes you believe the 'fuel(s) of the future' will be less expensive than gasoline? Hydrogen is currently around $20 a gallon
I've been in all three sides of the automotive business for a long time and in the real world people buy what they want. History repeatedly tells us what they ALWAYS want is their vehicles to be bigger and more powerful. Look at what both Toyota and Honda have marketed over the past ten years. They are ALL bigger and more powerful, with more new trucks and SUVs than small cars. Todays Corolla is a bigger car than the Camry of yore. Where the import have the advantage is that can import the midget cars the make and sell around the world. They can't afford to build them in the US anymore than domestics can. Even though the imports have much lower labor and benefits cost than the domestics in the US. When buyers warm to the higher gas prices they will shun smaller cars just as they did after the last big gas price jumps. Teh fact is we use far more gas at $3 than we did when it was $2
Even if we could develop an alternative fuel to replace gasoline, the cost of a delivery system alone would be in the billions, IF we can get it built under the current pollution laws. If we did all that OPEC can simply lower the price of crude and make ANY new fuel a more expensive option. We sill never see any fuel for our cars that is less expensive, so the sooner you become accustomed to it you can buy the big powerful car vehicle you want. ;)
mike hunt

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That is incredibly stupid
Mike Hunter wrote:

People want transport from a to b and they want it to be safe, comfortable and at a low cost
In Europe that means increasingly using trains for long trips and small cars at the destination
There is an increasing number of powerful transport options using combination of high quality trains and comfortable long lasting small cars
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Apparently you do not know much about the US if you believe that. ;)
mike hunt

We are all entitled to our opinions I guess. What makes you believe the 'fuel(s) of the future' will be less expensive than gasoline? Hydrogen is currently around $20 a gallon
I've been in all three sides of the automotive business for a long time and in the real world people buy what they want. History repeatedly tells us what they ALWAYS want is their vehicles to be bigger and more powerful. Look at what both Toyota and Honda have marketed over the past ten years. They are ALL bigger and more powerful, with more new trucks and SUVs than small cars. Todays Corolla is a bigger car than the Camry of yore. Where the import have the advantage is that can import the midget cars the make and sell around the world. They can't afford to build them in the US anymore than domestics can. Even though the imports have much lower labor and benefits cost than the domestics in the US. When buyers warm to the higher gas prices they will shun smaller cars just as they did after the last big gas price jumps. Teh fact is we use far more gas at $3 than we did when it was $2
Even if we could develop an alternative fuel to replace gasoline, the cost of a delivery system alone would be in the billions, IF we can get it built under the current pollution laws. If we did all that OPEC can simply lower the price of crude and make ANY new fuel a more expensive option. We sill never see any fuel for our cars that is less expensive, so the sooner you become accustomed to it you can buy the big powerful car vehicle you want. ;)
mike hunt

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Mike Hunter wrote:

That's right, when a commodity is expensive because it's scarce, the solution is to just make more money and consume, consume, consume and don't give a second thought to what would happen if everyone acted like you.
nate
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Isn't envy one of the deadly sins? It is people like me that makes work for others ;)
mike hunt

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Mike Hunter wrote:
(idiot top posting fixed)

What are you talking about, oh top posting one?
nate
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On Thu, 3 Aug 2006 13:56:52 -0400, "Mike Hunter"

Horse shit. Size and power are always a compromise between needs/desires of the buyer for capacity, price, fuel economy, maneuverability and other factors. Otherwise we would all be driving cars the size of the Queen Mary by now.

Well, I guess you have now obliquely defined what a "midget car" is. It must be the Yaris and Fit class of cars. No, these are not built here, at least not yet. (Where are they built?)
You imply that these cars are why Honda and Toyota sales are booming while GM and Ford are in the dumper. The Yaris and Fit constitute only a tiny sliver of Toyota and Honda sales. They certainly don't explain why Pilot outsold Explorer last month.

I have to doubt any "fact" you post, but I do know for sure that truck-based SUV sales have been falling for the last four years.

The average American's wages haven't been keeping up with inflation since W got into office. Lots of Americans can't afford the gas for the Suburban they foolishly bought three years ago no matter how accustomed they become to $3/gal. The truck-based SUVs which kept GM and Ford afloat will not come back until gas drops below $2. Don't hold your breath.

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On Fri, 4 Aug 2006 09:09:42 -0400, "Mike Hunter"

Where did I say I believed that in the first place? I think you are confused (again).
I don't even know which "fuels" you are even talking about. I know that one "fuel" is already cheaper - electricity. Not too practical for cars (although it might work for some people), but it works pretty well for commuter trains. I also understand that EtOH from sugar cane is at least competitive if not actually cheaper than petroleum fuels in Brazil.
Hydrogen is a sham. If anyone doubted that before, they must realize that now that Bush is promoting it.

Did I say the want small underpowered cars? No, they want vehicles that are bigger inside than an Excursion, faster than a Lamborghini, easier to park than a Segway, as agile as a Mini, and burn fuel like a Vespa.
Here is what I actually said:

Here is my prediction:
With high prices and short supplies of fuel (and possibly CO2 restrictions) ahead, Suburbans will become niche vehicles for people who need to transport >6 people all the time. The engine will become anemic, because these buyers won't care about acceleration but will care about fuel economy. The vehicles will gradually become more car-like because the heavy duty frame and off-road capability will be readily sacrificed for greater fuel economy.
The SUV will evolve into stylistic treatment on a car - basically a macho station wagon. What few "real" SUVs remain will be niche vehicles with tiny sales numbers.

And they are doing a lot better with them than GM and Ford.
When fuel was cheap, the compromise (see above) favored size and power over fuel economy (especially since technology was improving mechanic al efficiency to minimize the penalty.) Now that fuel is no longer cheap, the trend will reverse. Actually, it already has. Sales of truck-based SUVs peaked in 2001.

Fit is the new Civic.

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