How important is it to first warm up the car? winter

"Floyd Davidson" wrote

It gets plenty cold enough here to be able to see what happens to vehicles when you cold start them. So you live somewhere "really" cold. In that case, your advice is correct..."for you".

Feel free. Might as well call probably 80 percent of our one million inhabitants of this city idiots too. Our cars start quite well and don't "blow up" because of the cold starts. I work as an automotive technician for a living and engine failures are almost always due to poor maintenance, coolant intrusion into the engine oil...etc. Not cold starts on regular oil.

What does occur to me is that you really do have no clue. The whining noise is "metal being shaved off of cylinders, bearings etc" eh? That's a good one. Just for you own personal info, the whining noises happen to be emanating mainly from the alternator, and a bit from the power steering pump. I couldn't hear any whining noise from the engine anyway, as the piston slap is loud enough to drown out any other noises. Oh yeah....the piston slap is there at all temperatures, don't get excited.

I didn't say at -50C. If I lived in those conditions and drove in those conditions for any extended period of time, I'm sure I'd change to a different oil and use my block heater. Even now, if I get the chance, and I remember, I'll plug the car in. Simply for ease of starting and quicker heat.

Please....I've gotten more then that out of most of the vehicle I've driven. Two of them that I drove for another

4-5 years already had over 200,000 miles on them. Other, more gullible people on the internet will probably lap up your nonsense, but I've actually been driving and repairing cars long enough to know better.

What planet are you from?

Ian

Reply to
shiden_Kai
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"Michael" wrote

I'm not against using a block heater...it's just all the dire predictions that people make. You "must" use a block heater, and an oil pan heater, and battery blanket (actually, that last one is probably the smartest of the bunch) in order to start in -30C weather. Give me a break....I've been starting cars for years in that kind of weather unplugged. I'll take cold starts any day, over not changing your oil in a timely matter....when it comes to what will "blow up" your engine.

I have no doubt there are many places that are colder then -36C. In that case, they use different techniques, which will include synthetic oil and always plugged in or garaged. Makes sense to me.

Ian

Reply to
shiden_Kai

Way down south here in Grand Forks, we hit -44F (-42C) one morning--I've got a .jpg of the gate at the airbase that said -34F (I guess when it said -44 folks had other things on their minds.) When it gets that cold the slightest breeze is painful. Block heaters & garages at night, then hope for a block heater available during the day. Down to -10F, car starts just fine when cold. Always had it plugged in if it was colder.

Reply to
Rapid Rick

Stratton ANG base in Scotia, NY, or maybe it's listed as Glenville, NY. I work just up the road from it, big airshow there every year and they've had the Blue Angels and Thunderbirds perform. I think the Blue Angels were there the last 2 years, they fly right over my place of work, so I get to see them in action.

Reply to
Mike Levy

Are you some kind of a pussy or what? Every morning for the last 2 weeks, its been -10F. I've gone outside and started my car, waited 5 minutes and drove away. Never had a problem. She fired right up at -20F with wind last weekend. No block heater or anything like that. So you're saying that we should just stay home because its below 0? Come on, I just start thinkin bout puttin on a jacket when it gets to 0. What a dumbass

Reply to
Mistercmk

It's the engine not the battery. If the engine is warm enough, it starts without needing much from the battery. If it's too cold to start, all the battery in the world won't start it. The batteries are also fairly well protected, and are not going to get so cold for several hours that they wouldn't provide enough energy to crank the engines. On the other hand, the engine doesn't have to get nearly as cold as the battery would before it has a problem. Remember that the engine is designed to get rid of heat. The battery can be in an insulated container designed to keep it warm for hours...

But the big problem is that they do not have facilities in the villages to heat the plane. If it gets cold enough, it'll be there until someone brings in the equipment to restart it. That's big bucks.

BTW, it isn't just that "extreme cold" reduces cranking power. It's a simple case of the colder it gets the less energy can be extracted from the battery. I don't recall specific figures for lead-acid cells, but with each degree in temperature drop there is a drop in available energy. However, even at -50F a typical battery will provide enough energy to start a warm engine. Its just that if it doesn't start, with a warm battery you can crank it for several minutes convincing yourself that it really won't start! With a cold battery, a few minutes or even less than a minute is all you get. (Either way, it isn't the battery!)

A whole 737 full of people and cargo is just as big in Barrow as it is anywhere else.

And they commonly don't stop *anywhere* long enough to justify the hassle, but it is less expensive to shut it down if restarting it is easy and reliable. However, the facilities to power the plane and to restart are not economical here, nor are mechanics available if there is a hitch. Plus, it is true that there is never any reason to hold a plane here for any length of time. They typically do a turnaround in about 1 hour. At other airports (Anchorage is a good example) they may have scheduling reasons to keep an airplane on the ground for half an hour longer, or even more, just to wait for passengers from another arrival that might be transferring to that particular aircraft.

Hence, at locations other than Anchorage and Fairbanks (Juneau I'm not sure about) in Alaska they leave them running more as an insurance policy that anything else.

-- Floyd L. Davidson Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) snipped-for-privacy@barrow.com

Reply to
Floyd Davidson

The battery blanket is the dumb one! You don't need it to begin with unless the temperature is going to get down to -65F/-54C or so. But even then the smart thing to do is not blanket or heat pad, but a little 1 Amp trickle charger.

Both are dumb.

Any place where temperatures commonly are below 0F/-17C it would be smart to use only synthetic oil. Any place where temperatures get colder than maybe -15F/-26C it is advisable to use a block heater. Using an oil pan heater and a transmission heater is a good idea starting at maybe 10 degrees colder than that.

(Actually, I wouldn't put anything but synthetic oil in an engine no matter what the temperature.)

-- Floyd L. Davidson Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) snipped-for-privacy@barrow.com

Reply to
Floyd Davidson

What are you, some kind of a prick that you tear up your engine to prove it can be started when it's cold? That's a silly thing to do to a vehicle that costs as much as cars do these days!

I didn't say the engine would not start, I just said it isn't a very smart thing to do. If it's in good condition, it probably will start a -30F or even -35F with no heat. Do you think that means it's reasonable thing to do?

You may indeed be a dumbass, especially if you think that isn't causing unnecessary wear and tear on the engine.

I'm sure that you have a great deal of experience with no jacket on at 0 degrees (you lying twit!), but people who live where it actually is cold on a regular basis do have experience and an understanding of what makes a difference. BTW, last time I looked it was -38F here... with a windchill of -58F. Have a look at

-- Floyd L. Davidson Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) snipped-for-privacy@barrow.com

Reply to
Floyd Davidson

get an auto-starter so you can start the car without the ignition key. Police write a ticket ?#@

Reply to
On

Give me some proof that starting my car when it is below zero will harm it. Facts, stats, something other than what you think. But until then, I will be starting my car when it is below zero, and letting it warm up for five minutes, then driving away. I've been doin it that way on all my vehicles, and never had a problem.

Reply to
Mistercmk

my 2 cents!!! I used to drive over 100 km (60 miles) per trip to go to work for over 4 years. I have had many GMs' and Japanese cars. They're always started every year following regular oil change interval. I never had my car run more than a few minutes since I did not want to waste more time in the morning and beside it cold in the butt while waiting for engine to warm-up does not make any sense to me, typically the time it took me to place my coffee in cup holder and seat belt on is all its need. So far, I have not had any engine failure prematurely because of the cold weather. In fact, I never had engine failure and all of my cars when I get rid of it has more than 100,000 miles. Like most people here already said, drive slow when it is cold for a few blocks then drive like normal. My wife on the other hand like to keep her car nice and warm. She usually has the car running for about 20 minutes (remote starter!) then drive to work. Her GM car is still running like top. No oil leak, no burning oil passed E-test. Just waste gas!! So really I don't see any problem either way from engine point of view. Perhaps BMW or other fancy car is more particularly about long idling (morning start-up) due to engine control algorithm for fuel burning to avoid damage to exhaust system or sensors (heard from someone who has a BMW told me..!!)

Reply to
On

"Mistercmk" wrote

He can't, but since he lives in Alaska, he figures he's the resident expert of "cold starting" cars.

Ian

Reply to
shiden_Kai

All very fine... except you are talking about a warm-up after the engine is started, and I'm talking about a need to pre-heat the engine.

I know of no reason to wait more than something between a few seconds and a few minutes before driving after the engine is started. A few seconds when the temperature is above perhaps

20F, and on up to several minutes at -70F.

The whole point is to wait until fluids have a chance to move. Oil being the prime concern, but power steering fluid and more so transmission fluids are also a concern. Perhaps the best thing in really cold weather (say -40 or colder) is to start the engine and put the transmission into neutral. Let it run for 2,

3, 4 minutes? 10? Depends on the vehicle I guess. If you try longer times and get better response, then use longer times. I you can't tell any difference, just wait a couple minutes and go. (I've seen trucks that at -60F simply would not back out of a parking place until the tranny was given a little time to work.)

Well, selling the car before the engine has much time on it is certainly one way to avoid premature engine wear failures!

What you've just said is that none of your observations could be conclusive.

-- Floyd L. Davidson Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) snipped-for-privacy@barrow.com

Reply to
Floyd Davidson

Well, lets see... you get how many cold starts per year? 10? 30? 60?

There are roughly 60 days a year when it is not below freezing here. That's probably 300 days a year for cold starts, which means anyone living here probably gets 5 to 10 times the experience that you do.

Ten years here is like a life time there.

-- Floyd L. Davidson Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) snipped-for-privacy@barrow.com

Reply to
Floyd Davidson

Go to google, and use the advanced web search features. Search on

"cold start" wear pre-heat

Include the quotes because you want that one as a phrase. You'll find *many* references to the wear caused by cold starts. You will not find a single one that says pre-heating is not useful in reducing wear. Not a single one!

Here are some examples, from a variety of sources,

A Canadian magazine:

"Vehicles subjected to Canada's cold winter starts experience more engine wear in a couple years than a California vehicle may in a couple decades of starts."

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A commercial site:

"preserve the life of their engines by avoiding cold starts which can be directly attributable to up to 80% of engine wear."

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A government site, primarily concerned with non-wear affects:

"Plugging in for 2 to 4 hours when the temperature is 20 F above zero or colder drastically reduces emissions. Cold engines produce 50 to 100 times more carbon monoxide, hydrocarbon, and nitrous oxides emissions in the first minute of operation than pre-warmed ones. Over 90,000 cars and trucks are registered in Missoula.  Plugging in a car in can reduce carbon monoxide by almost a pound per cold start.  If we all plugged in, we could greatly reduce carbon monoxide pollution in our area.

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A techie outfit (the whole article is very interesting):

"We believe there are two major causes of wear in a properly filtered engine: cold starts and bore rust.

STAHL HEADERS/CAMS 1513/1515 Mt. Rose Ave. York, PA 17403 June 1988 STAHL HEADERS/CAMS NEWSLETTER

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While you are looking at what the google search comes up with, don't avoid the ones that reference aircraft engines... They get a bit more adamant out it proceedures because the effects of engine failure are legally more of a liability for them than for Ford or Subaru!

-- Floyd L. Davidson Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) snipped-for-privacy@barrow.com

Reply to
Floyd Davidson

Floyd, please remind me not to challenge you to provide proofs. Sheer genius.

Reply to
iBuyMinis.Us

What if you can not plug your car in while you at work? At extreme cold night, I will plug in the car (block heater is all I have) but only for 4 hrs using prog. timers. Never plug-in the car at work simply because I could not anyway. I think plug in is better but has little or nothing to do with engine damage (internal engine we are talking about). The cold weather does not help only if the engine is not properly maintained then you could probable damage the engine. I believe use proper oil type for the climate should be sufficient. To damage an engine, you need heat and heat is what you are lacking off in extreme cold weather. I can see alternator, starter motor, engine hoses leaking, seals, battery and mostly rad and external body component properly taking more abuse than actual engine itself. Warming-up your engine before starting or after started only help starter motor and comfort and nothing else. I say replace your engine oil often and use high quality engine oil is your best safe guard against premature or engine damage.

By the way, when I get rid of the car never because engine problem. I never hardly get rid of my car less than 100,000 miles. My current car (1993 model) has about 200,000 miles right now and still running great. My brother Volvo (960) has more than 300,000 miles and all its need was new head gasket and head job (just had it done last years from Volvo) to reduce oil consumption and now it run like top. So lets be sure it is conclusive this time.

1/ Plug-in is better for cold start-up 2/ Plug-in or not from my experience does not make engine wear prematurely (premature engine wear by someone definition is 25,000 miles?). It will help only if you're neglect basic engine oil (use proper oil grade for climate condition) and cooling (proper mixture)maintenance If the engine and engine bay is design properly, it should last more than 100,000 miles. 3/ I agree cold weather is hard on vehicle (all external component which you can not do anything about) and still has nothing to do with engine damage right? 4/ The key point as everyone has already said is drive slow till you warm-up other component (transmission, and other moving parts) to reduce engine loading. If you respect all this, your engine should last more than 25,000 miles and expect more than 100,000 miles with proper engine (engine that last without cold weather)

Perhaps you have seen many engines damage due to lack of engine warm-up and that is totally true, from my experience I have never seen it yet. That means it is not a systematic problem and consider a random problem which we can not avoid it by engine warm-up

It has been fun to chat about this and it is rather > >my 2 cents!!!

Reply to
On

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On

Reply to
Jinxter

I have read, with great interest, this message chain. With so many diverse opinions, I am not surprised by the need to ask the original question!!!

In sumation, it appears that the answer depends on where you live and the temperatures observed, and the level of wear and tear your willing to put up with!

If one wishes to pre-heat the car, that's fine, but in cold areas where the roads are salted, the body will rust out before the engine fails. The cold can affect other systems that may fail prematurely.

If one wishes to keep a particular car for the next, say, 50 years. One can pre-heat, use a pre-oil circulator (a pump to oil the motor before cranking), drive as if there is an egg under the accelerator, use Amsoil or whatever, etc., etc., etc., This would give you a car with 1,000,000 miles or more!

FWIW: I idle the car for as long as it takes to scrape the ice off the windshield, then drive away!

Reply to
Dave Monat

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