Is the Hummer "greener" than the Prius?

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Hidden cost of driving a Prius
Totaling all the energy expended, from design to junkyard, a Hummer http://doiop.com/Hummer may be a better bargain.
Toyota's Prius http://doiop.com/Toyota-Prius [is] a compact hybrid that's beloved by ardent environmentalists and that fetches premium prices because it gets nearly 50 miles-per-gallon in combined highway/city driving.
Yet, new data have emerged that show the Prius may not be quite as eco- friendly as first assumed - if you pencil in the environmental negatives of producing it in the first place... =========More: http://doiop.com/84bl35
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The article makes some valid points, although I do question the Prius' expected life of 100,000 miles vs. 300,000 for the Hummer. The hoopla surrounding the Prius and other hybrids, which IMHO trade/transfer gasoline consumption for resources used to make and eventually dispose of the batteries (and not very well at that) is made mostly by the uninformed who do not understand the big picture. I would much rather see the manufacturers put their energies into higher efficiency diesel and/or gasoline engines, and see measures to discourage the public from requiring 4,000 pound cars.
On Jun 4, 11:03 am, R.Hemmu <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-

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I don't know how long the batteries are supposed to last, but I doubt a Prius would be wore out at 100k.. Batteries maybe, but not most of the rest of the car.. Hummer 300k?? maybe, but it will be guzzling quite a bit of gas in that 300k.. Actually, I think a hummer would be lucky to do 200k without needing some major upkeep.. They are generally offroad vehicles after all. Tires cost a lot more too.. But I was paronoid to go hybrid.. I could have bought a civic hybrid for about 1k more than I paid for the corolla.. But I was scared of future problems with batteries, etc.. Parts like those generally cost big bucks from a dealer. If they are a proprietary design.. Big $$$$$ usually.. On the other hand, the corolla is pretty simple overall, I can work on it without having to do a crash course in hybrid technology, and I don't have to worry about weird parts flaking out on me that cost big $$$$.. It's cheaper too... I really have trouble seeing the prius as much more *green* than the simple corolla in the long run when you consider the cost of the car, and past/present/future problems with batteries or whatever. I assume the scion xb they talk about is even cheaper to run than the corolla. And the corolla is certainly capable of clocking 200k-300k if taken care of. Ditto for a civic.. MK
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message

See http://www.philly.com/inquirer/opinion/20070404_Hidden_cost_of_driving_a_Prius.html (http://tinyurl.com/2swu3l )
This is a bunch of clap trap. They are basing the numbers on the Prius only lasting 100,000 miles while the SUV was supposed to last almost 300,000 miles. Find me a fair analysis and I'll pay attention. From the article:
"The Prius registered an energy-cost average of $3.25 per mile driven over its expected life span of 100,000 miles. Ironically, a Hummer, the brooding giant that has become the bκte noir of the green movement, did much better, with an energy-cost average of $1.95 over its expected life span of 300,000 miles. And its crash protection makes it far safer than the tiny Prius."
Ed
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wrote:

I don't think any of us know who is right in this case, but I think that it is actually a valid point - the Prius is new technology, while the Hummer is old, proven tech. Until hard numbers are available, I would assume that it would be a true statement that a Hummer will last longer in normal service than a Prius.
Of course, what everyone is forgetting is that the greenest car of all is the one you already have because you don't need to expend any energy at all to produce it, just to maintain it.
nate
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N8N wrote:

I do. The invented figures are a straight lie.

Bollocks.
Both are old-tech by today's standards. There's *NOTHING* hi-tech about a Prius aside from the "gee whizz" factor.
Graham
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wrote:

I disagree; the Hummer is an evolution of a design that was pretty well worked out around the time of WW2. The Prius uses technology that wasn't used on a wide scale in an automotive application until the introduction of the Prius, and wasn't even introduced by a major manufacturer prior to GM's EV-1.
For my money, were I buying a new car with environmental consciousness in mind (and, as I stated before, I couldn't justify buying a new car on environmental grounds unless my current ride was well and truly completely worn out) I would be looking at something like a Volkswagen TDI. VW has been building Diesels far longer than hybrids have been around, and VW has a known track record for longevity.
nate
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N8N wrote:

To quote your words.....
**** " in an automotive application " ****. You're correct as far as that goes.
It's old tech anywhere else.
Do you think fuel injection is hi-tech too btw ?
Graham
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wrote:

It's certainly been around a lot longer than hybrid automobiles - 1955 (Mercedes-Benz/Bosch) or 1957 (Chevrolet/Rochester) depending on what side of the pond you're on. And that's not even counting race-only setups like Hilborn.
Sure there have been hybrid Diesel/electric locomotives for about that long, but the real challenge is scaling that technology down to work in a midsized-car application, and we still haven't been 100% succesful. I say that because the Prius is still heavier and slower than a comparable conventional vehicle.
nate
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Eeyore wrote:

Has there ever been a production car in the past 50 years that was new- tech?
There are tech articles about the Prius at www.techonline.com and www.automotivedesignline.com (article #199200607), including a video of one being taken apart. The emphasis is mostly on the electronics, and the CPUs are dated 1995.
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larry moe 'n curly wrote:

Exactly. That's really old stuff in the world of electronics.
Even ideas like regenerative braking go back nearly a century.
Graham
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wrote:

When we're talking about a machine that I'm strapped into, traveling down the highway at (mumble) MPH, I'd prefer that the electronics be old-tech, thankyewverymuch. Just like the CPUs used in fire alarm systems tend to be stuff that was obsolete in the PC world a decade ago. We use 'em because they're proven, and don't adopt new technology until that too is proven. When your PC crashes, that's a figure of speech. When your car crashes...
nate
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Eeyore wrote:

Lee Iacocca said that was about when he had worked on a hybrid car design.
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N8N wrote:

The Peugeot diesels are the best I know of, although of course not available to you. I drove a compact Peugeot turbo diesel 1.9 litre back in '88 and it was remarkably brisk ! The sales rep was moderately impressed too. I actually couldn't tell it wasn't a gasoline engine other than the 4500 ? max rpm.
Graham
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wrote:

I'll have to take your word for it; the track record of French automakers in the US has been uniformly abysmal (and FIAT as well, for that matter.) Really the only European imports we get in any quantity are the German ones, and in fact I'm pretty sure that those are the only ones that have an official presence here save for Rolls-Royce and Bentley.
nate
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N8N wrote:

Not for the quality of their engines AFAIK.

Skoda (part of VW) even makes a turbo-diesel 'GTi style' hot hatchback now ! UK motoring program Top Gear put it on test against its similar gasoline engined stable-mate and *the diesel won* !
Graham
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Eeyore wrote:

Now I'd love to get my paws on one of those. I miss my old Wabbit GTI. Had an '02 1.8T as well, I loved that but in a completely different way - it had a distinct "big car feel" to it.
nate
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Nate Nagel wrote:

Which year's model was your original GTi ? Was it a Mk1 or 2 ?
That Skoda 2 litre diesel produces 170 bhp btw ! http://www.skoda.co.uk/skoda3g/content/showroom/newoctavia/specifications_modelrange.aspx
I wouldn't be surprised if the 1.4 litre 80 bhp gasoline powered Octavia was quite fun to drive too.
What's the smallest engine any US auto maker fits ?
Graham
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Eeyore wrote:

http://www.skoda.co.uk/skoda3g/content/showroom/newoctavia/specifications_modelrange.aspx
Depends on what you consider US Maker. GM has a 1.0 liter. The problem is that many of those small engines come in TINY cars. I for one hate being stuffed in a tin foil sardine can. Of course I have also no real use for any car built anywhere. For our usage and driving the wife and I need a 4X4 with ground clearance and the ability to tow a load as needed. Do I need that ability all the time? NO. However we don't want to have a car lot either.
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wrote:

Mk1... it was an '84 (last year)

I honestly haven't a clue. Probably something about 2.0 liters. Most of the small American cars are so boring that paying attention to them seems something akin to trainspotting.
nate
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