K&N air filter for 1995 Pontiac Firebird Formula

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SgtSilicon wrote:


Yes, you are right. I do think it's important to note though, that you will "never" have any warranty claim denied if you simply use the factory type of air filter. I think it's also safe to say that GM would not release this type of bulletin if they hadn't run into this problem. Obviously, somewhere... someone...has over oiled their filters and it has caused problems. I don't blame GM for not wanting to pay for damages that "do" stem from this type of thing.
From what I see on a daily basis, GM doesn't try to deny warranty claims at all. If anything, we are covering all sorts of repairs that should really be the responsibility of the customer.
Ian
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On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 03:22:20 GMT, "shiden_Kai"

It would only be right that they shouldn't have to pay for the mistakes of others. I agree. I still don't see how oil on a MAF sensor causes a tranny to die though. I'm not trying to insult you or challenge your competency. I just really am bewildered by that. I would think the pressure given to the tranny would be controlled by if slippage is happening, not how much air is being metered on the engine intake.
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A trans would be told to shift hard and fast if the MAF sensed full blast air flow and a wide open TPS.
I therefore speculate that the "logic" here is that if the MAF is not sensing air movement sufficiently in line with other readings then it shifts the trans verrrry slowly (a.k.a. slips) whilst it waits for everything to catch up.
GW
SgtSilicon wrote: > I still don't see how oil on a MAF

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SgtSilicon wrote:

Sarge, don't worry about insulting me or challenging me about the transmission issue. I'm simply passing on info that's in the bulletin. You can read it for yourself in the post where I included the body of the TSB. "GM" is the one saying that an oil contaminated MAF can cause driveability problems, and transmission failures.
Ian
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I have no choice but to accept that as the reality, even if it seems strange. And now after more posting on this, I guess it seems less strange. It's too bad though that it judges how hard the engine is working by the MAF input rather than other more direct factors. Or maybe that is the best judge of it.
On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:41:20 GMT, "shiden_Kai"

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On an electronically controlled transmission:
The MAF is the sensor that is as important as the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor0 because it gives the ECM real time load, and manifold vacuum.
So the wire covered in crusted oil, will send a erroneous reading, altering the pressures needed, causing slippage in a range requiring more pressure, a locking signal to the torque converter, and none delivered because of the contaminated wire.
So, in the end, they paint that statement with a broad brush, and if you put an oiled filter in there, you caused the problem, you pay the bill!
Refinish King
wrote:

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On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:09:49 -0400, "Refinish King"

Yeah it's all coming together now. I had installed a K&N in my car. I have not yet had to clean and re oil it. Are the levels of oil in it as put in by the manufacturer high enough to cause these types of problems on the MAF? Is ANY oil a danger, or is it folks getting carried away on the re-oiling of them that really is the problem?
How do I tell if I have any contamination already? I haven't noticed any problems yet. Also, I keep regular records of my fuel consumption rates, and have not noticed any alarming trend.
Comments welcomed by any and all of course, not just RK.
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wrote:

Position
altering
pressure, a

the
you put

From the factory the oiled filters SHOULD be ok, BUT any time you add any liquid into an air stream, some will come out of the media and enter the air. The problem seems to be when people who clean and re-oil the filter don't follow the directions properly OR use different oil.
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An air filter will cause a transmission failure? Bull Shit!
Oil covered sensors? When GM stops using a Intake vented PVC system I might believe that.
Let them attempt to void a warrantee of mine or one of my customers for such shit. Ill go thru and find the cause of the failure, then get it re-instated. That's the time a tech tried to blame the use of Nitrous for repeated starter issues, and they voided a warrantee. The problem was a wiring issue that the dumb techs couldn't track. Charles
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Charles Bendig wrote:

Read the relevant TSB, you pompous dumbass. You have no clue what you are talking about. This is 2004, not 1967. By the way, I sent the body of the TSB in another post, so have at her.
Ian
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Ian, are you getting the impression that this bozo is about twenty years out of the loop?
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Neil Nelson wrote:

Yes....which would be ok if a person was simply willing to admit they might not be up to speed on everything these days. God knows that very few of us are....even when we are working with the new stuff all the time. There is so much new info and updates coming down the line it's ridiculous.
Ian
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I did read it. I also know that oil can be all thru out the intake track from the PVC system. Most techs if they saw oil there and it had an after market air filter will blame that. They will not check to see if it is filter oil or not.
I know it's not 1967. Hell Three Quarters of the vehicles I work on have Electronic Fuel Injection. Over Half are Front Wheel Drive. That includes OBDII vehicles. Usually there is not much to write about servicing them. On the rare occasion I will need further info, like when I asked about Saturn transmissions. Because I don't deal in many of them, and my books don't cover most Saturn items. I'm just now getting enough Saturn service work to warrant the cost of purchasing manuals that have the info on them.
I understand how automatic transmissions work. While I do not build them. I know what PCM's do and do not do. I understand exactly how toque converters work, what the valve body does, what vacuum or electronics do what, ect. Even in 1967 the basic principals of hydraulics using a turbine style pump were the same. Since then they have refined them, and added features to the control systems.
If your TPS is reading WOT at part throttle, you should get a hard shift. Which is not harmful to the transmission. Crisp, Hard shifts are better for long term clutch life. If your at WOT and it is not registering, the engine should not be getting enough fuel to harm the transmission with a sluggish shift.
I probably see a lot of things you don't. If that's pompous or dumb, then please don't bother to read my postings.
I have seen GM cars where oil has coated MAF/MAP sensors. I have also seen it on TPS sensors. On cars that have paper element filters. This oil is coming from too high a crank case pressure, and causing drivability concerns. Usually on cars with high miles, and no P-M other then oil and filter changes.
We both know it's not hard to clean a sensor, or replace it at customer cost. Instead of voiding a warrantee. That is dumb and pompous. It's also something that SEMA has faugh against for years. Automakers have claimed that doing this or that should void a warrantee because it will or can cause a symptom.
I have said many times before I work on 2 to 4 year old vehicles, and rarely see brand new vehicles for mechanical service (mostly wrecked ones at that). So I don't have to keep up to the minute on service bulletins, or service procedures. Usually by the time they come to me Mitchell's or Motor's has 96% of the updated info in the books. Mitchell's publishes TSB books just for people like me.
We work in different worlds. I have tried to point that out to you before. I guess you don't get it. So Ill offer you something. Take a vacation, come on down and wrench at my place for a week, at $60 US per hour. Ill even stay away, either at the parts houses, or doing off site work. Then at the end of that week, you can tell me exactly what you think. Charles
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Charles Bendig wrote:

It's obvious we wrench in different worlds. I have no problem with independent shops, or techs that work in them. It's not my cup of tea, I've grown up in the dealer environment and I'm used to it. I don't care what you do, the topic was simply about aftermarket oiled air filters. Now that you have read the TSB, you can do nothing really, other then agree that in some cases, GM might just void warrantee if someone doesn't know how to oil their filter. Whatever, let's move on.
You get paid 60 dollars an hour US? Or is this just something special you are offering me? I find it hard to believe that you would pay me that kind of money hourly. I already make close to 50 dollars an hour Canadian, but I have to work my ass off for it. If your shop isn't on flat rate, it would be a vacation for me. Work a leisurely 8 hours a day, and pocket 60 US an hour....that would be sweet.
If you are saying that I would come down and be unable to duplicate what you can do in a weeks time....well, duh! You'd have a good chuckle at my expense, and then when you came up and worked flat rate in our dealership for a week and got handed a ring job on a Northstar, I'd have a good chuckle. But nothing of any real value would be accomplished. It takes time to get good at any particular type of work.
Ian
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Ill say this: if they can not follow directions on how to properly oil an air filter, they need serious help. Even some small engines use oiled filters (lawn mowers, trimmers, ect).

That is my standard billing rate per hour of labor. Other shops in this area are going up to $80, so I will be too in a while.

That's $60US per billing hour (book time). I only flat rate some jobs, or certain customers jobs. If book calls for 4.4 hours, and you get it done under that, you get your money for 4.4 hours. I would have to add a $5 per hour mark up on the labor to cover over head. When it's just me, 100% of the money goes in to my pocket. Then I pay the bills as needed. My accountant hates me, but he only does my taxes.

I'm not saying you couldn't do it. I'm saying come down, do the work I do, deal with the people I deal with, ect, and see how things go. Then you will have a clear picture as to why I am like I am.
I bet you would even get along well with the Buick-GMC-Hummer tech that does some work out of my shop. He's been a dealer puke for over 15 years. Hell of a great guy, all he know's is cars & driving. He got taken off the Hummer in because he dared as for a raise. He gets around $27 US per book hour of labor, even though the dealership bills his labor at $80+ an hour. All the dealers around here do that.
The only dealers I worked for were used car dealerships. Which I know from knowing dealer guys is a totally different world. Charles BTW: Dealer Puke is local slang for Dealer Tech. I guess some here take it as an offense.
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No, it's called an electronically controlled transmission which uses the Mass Airflow Sensor signal (engine load) as part of the shift strategy/programming.

Gee, where else should GM vent the PCV from considering that it -has- to be a closed system? The air filter is upstream from the MAF sensor which is upstream from the PCV vent. MAF sensor contamination is always found on the upstream side of the sensor element. Get a clue.

I'll bet you can walk on water also.
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wrote:

Ohh the thingy that replace that dern throttle value cable set up? Yes I know what they are.

system I

Try this, a tube ran from the Positive Crankcase Ventilation Valve to an Expansion take with a oil separators unit. Then a tube for gasses to the catalectic converter. Which will burn off everything. This would remove one element of soot in the intake tract. It would also lead to cleaner combustion chambers, pistons & valves.
You can have a closed crankcase ventilation system with out a PVC value. Nascar uses them with Mopar style breathers. Where the gasses are run in to the intake underneath the carburetor. Other variations on that are an open system with 2 breather elements in the center of the intake, where the cross tube meets.
I could build a unit, and test it out. Yet if caught, since I do not have a prototype car from a manufacture, I would be tampering with emissions systems. Thus I could get a real nice fine.
No I don't walk on water. The tread of my boots tends to sipe it away so I can walk on wet ground. Charles
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Evidently not considering your "Bull Shit" comment above.

Meeting OBD2 regulations would be extremely difficult with this 'pipe the crankcase vapors into the cat-con' scheme of yours. Catalytic convertors will not burn off everything, especially oil vapors and adding extra unburned oil vapors to one will certainly shorten it's life.

I didn't ask about the valve. I asked how you'd do the intake vent.

A NASCAR engine would have no reason -or- desire to do it this way.

This is the way it's done, except that it doesn't meet the provisions of being a closed system so it wouldn't meet emissions standards that have been in effect since 1968.

That's right so the whole point is moot.

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Ted Mittelstaedt wrote in alt.autos.gm

allow
it
filter,
useless.
To a certain point. Pleating simply increases the area of the filter, while adding more pleats might seem like a good way to go, what actually happens is that the box gets filled up and adding more pleats forces the pleats to close up and actually cuts down on the area available. Plus reducing the area that the dirt can sit on. So, you will find that a filter like that will plug up faster, and probably not pass enough more air to begin with to make a difference.
--
Dick #1349
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
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than
Once again this depends on the area of the airbox. But don't you know that stacking air filters is a common trick in drag racing? Of course it's possible to do that when the filters are round and cover a carburetor.
I also said there are other ways than just increasing the pleats.
For another example of filter media, you can buy an electrostatic filter for your home furnace that uses a set of charged wires to apply a charge to the dirt as it passes through the filter, then attract the dirt to a plate where it is held. These filter out far smaller particles than paper can, and have much lower air resistance, with the downside that you have to wash them frequently, and of course you also need a power source.
I never said the K&N did any of this.
Ted
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