Let's Start the Insanity

Check out this link - http://www.forbes.com/2006/07/17/poorly-rated-vehicles_cx_dl_0718featA_ls.html
I live in the Detroit area and have watched Detroit die for the past
five years. Sure the *Downtown* area has seen great improvements, but the rest of Detroit is a waste land that should be nuked. Why is this? Unions. Plain and simple. The UAW is effectively killing the American automotive industry. Union's were fine 50 years ago when they were needed to prevent safety concerns and sweat shop environments. Now unions do nothing but drive up the costs of products. Union employees have higher absenteeism, lower output, and are extremely overpaid. Why the heck should a janitor make $70,000 a year? The big 3 has to cut costs and get shabby materials for their cars because they have to pay the workers so much. This leads to poor quality vehicles which in turn leads to people opting for foreign options the next time they buy. The bumper sticker that says "Out of a job yet? Keep buying foreign" should read "Out of a job yet? Keep paying union dues"
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On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 05:04:49 +0000, SteveZ.Zissou wrote:

Your viewpoint is one that surfaces whenever an industry faces hard times. But to really understand the problem with the auto industry you have to just look as far as the manufactuers themselfs.
None of the Big Three auto makers are very good at change. When the gas prices started to spike a few years back they were selling trucks and SUVs. They never spent any time upgrading alot of the smaller car lines except for asthetics (looks). When the gas crunched again it killed the suv market. Now I cant go down a street without finding Ford Explorers, GM Trucks and Dodge Rams for sale everywhere.
Incredibly poor decisions by GM. An example would be killing off the Park Avenue line. Have also killed sales.
Poor Waranties and Poor workmanship/engineering have also had a part in it. For an example, The 3.1 liter engine gm used in alot of vehicals had poor intake manifold gaskets. They know it but will not replace them. So, Now you have buyers not trusting them. Its really no wonder how companies like Toyota can jump in and get a good foot hold in the states. Dodge has poor transmission problems.
No, Unions are not really the problem. They are the wipping boy for an industry that is in a downturn.
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You can add the 3800 Series II engine to the coolant leak problems. That includes the Park Avenue.

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The bad decisions and poor design are one factor. The unions (and management that gave the money to them) are factors in the price/value of the American car.
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on Tuesday 09 October 2007 10:04 pm, someone posing as snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com took a rock and etched into the cave:

http://www.forbes.com/2006/07/17/poorly-rated-vehicles_cx_dl_0718featA_ls.html
<snip>
That's about as short-sighted as the auto-industry managers looking at next quarter for the forecast.
Sure the Auto Unions have high wages. If they weren't skilled workers, they wouldn't get paid those wages. I'm a manager and have full respect for the unions.
Don't blame the unions. Blame the shareholders and management.
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Skilled workers deserve good wages. The OP was complaining about the unskilled workers at auto plants making more than skilled workers at in other businesses, union or non-union.
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Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

How about the lawn care guys? Those dudes were getting full scale to cut grass. That's something I learned to do at ~10 years old.
b
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took a rock and etched into the cave:

Yes they are highly skilled. I saw a TV program recently where union workers worked 2 to 5 hours of their shift in a bar near their main work area. Not many workers are smart enough to carry their work to a bar and have a few while keeping their work up. You are definitely a Genius yourself. No doubt you would do well with out the Union. LOL
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tango wrote:

Isn't that "vital" bar work site called fraud, deceit, theft, and stealing?
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on Wednesday 24 October 2007 02:11 am, someone posing as tango took a rock and etched into the cave:

So you're pissed that you didn't think about the idea first?
Is that what you're telling us?
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Don't know what kind of job you have but, You can thank the unions of the united states for having a 5 day work week and some health benefits. Without the suffering and struggle they underwent and still do.We would all work just like the chinese. Its not easy to tell your boss that the work force will not be in until terms are met. Why not try it and see. : (

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Steve, I'm a native Detroiter (Born in Harper Hospital over on the east side, graduated from Redford High Class of 1967) and it wounds my soul when I think about what has happened to that city. I think you are correct in your assessment that most of Detroit should be nuked. Believe me I can remember when it was a beautiful city, even the area where the '67 Riot took place. I saw the handwriting on the wall after the first year of Coleman Young's administration and left Detroit in 1973, though I have been back (and I cry every time I'm there and see what has happened).
Yes, the unions are part of it, but there are a number of factors that put Detroit where it is. Start with liberal political leadership (example: Coleman Young and the Kwame Kilpatrick) that where so myopic that they never saw the need to diversfy the economy (common problem - witness Toledo, Cleveland etc.), spending $$$ on social programs (to "buy" votes) instead of keeping the infrastructure maintained.
Building Ford Field, the Ren Cen (funny that the Ren Cen was built by Ford but is now GM HQ) and all the flashy stuff downtown, including the casinos, did NOTHING to fix the rot and downhill slide of the outer areas. Good lord why does Grand River look like the road in from Bagdad Airport? Why are all the stores (except for the liquor stores) along 7 Mile around Evergreen (my old home area) gone? That area used to be a thriving commercial area. In the 40 years since the Riot Detroit has lost over 50% of its population (and not all of that loss is white folks either, though at this point Detriot has the highest percentage concentration of blacks of any city over 500K population).
OK, I'll get off my soapbox because you all get the idea where I'm headed. Yes, the UAW has to share part of the blame, but I'll bet that if you brought Walter Reuther back from the dead the first thing that would shock him is not the state of the auto industry but the overall state of the City of Detroit.
What will fix this problem? I wish I knew - I think it has to start with the people of the city saying "I don't want to live in this shithole any more", then electing city leaders that will do something about it.
Regards, Bill Bowen Sacramento, CA
snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

Remainder stripped for brevity.
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