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On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, Geoff Gariepy wrote:


When people who can't get or can't afford health insurance get the sniffles or a hangnail or the flu, they go to the emergency room because that's the only access they have to health care. Hospitals do not turn away ER patients because they cannot pay. As a result, all of us pay, and we pay a whole hell of a lot more than if there were some comprehensive system to take care of these people.

Source?
And even the best and poorest of us bleed when cut.

You seem to be confusing me with someone who thinks the US should have nationalized health care.

You seem to know nothing about the level of service in Canada. In Canada, most people with most ailments get the treatment they need quickly and efficiently and with great competence. (How do I know? Well, I've lived here for the past few years. How do *you* know? Sumpin' you heard on Rush Limbaugh?)

There is no lack of choice in doctors and hospitals in Canada. The notion that Canadians don't get to choose their doctors or their hospitals is a fabricated myth.

HMO's are "great"? Horseshit. If you want to talk about lack of choice in doctors and hospitals, HMOs are what we're going to discuss.
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If you have a problem with your HMO, you have the wrong HMO. I have been covered by an HMO for nearly twenty years. There are page after page of doctors, both GP's specialist, hospitals and pharmacies where I can go for treatment or medications. There are no lifetime limits or high deductibles, $10 for a GP, $25 for a specialist. I have never had a problem obtaining the superior services offered by my HMO and the fee is less than for lower, less comprehensive coverage, offered under Medicare or my previous BC/BS coverage.
mike hunt
"Daniel J. Stern" wrote:

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Daniel J. Stern wrote:

Yep. And when a lot of those same people with hangnails need a ride to get to the ER, they call 911. There's another flagrant abuse. Do we need a 'comprehensive system' to cover taxicab service too, Dan?

I'd like to know what you're calling your 'comprehensive system' if socialized medicine (a.k.a. nationalized health care) isn't the correct term.
>

You like punitive taxation for little in return, eh? Or is it maybe the 100 km/h national speed limit that was the big attraction?
Perhaps it was the climate!
:-)
How do *you* know? Sumpin' you heard on Rush

Actually, no. My source of information on the state of Canadian health care is from my Canadian co-workers who commute here from Windsor. And the truth is, they all carry U.S. health insurance at extra cost to themselves, because when they really need care they want to come *here*.
Anecdotal, I know. So is your assertion that 'most people with most ailments' blah, blah blah. In addition, I'll see your 'most people with most ailments' and raise you to 'most people with *all* ailments' -- which is the situation in the US.
And Canada's isn't a particularly bad socialized system. From my co-workers in Great Britian, I hear that the situation is truly dire. Emergency room queues that can last for days. (DAS care to comment?)

Maybe in Greater Toronto this is true. I occasionally listen to *Canadian* talk radio (you know, during the hours that Limbaugh isn't on here in the US) and hear the locals out in Canadian farm country bitch about how poor the health care is in southwest Ontario. I'm sure its worse in the other provinces, I just don't pick them up on my car radio.
Y'know Dan, Canada is just a few miles away. It's not hard for somebody in Detroit to know what the score is across the river. All I have to do is flip around the tuner and pay attention to what's going on.
You, on the other hand. are living in the single richest town in Canada, the one that Canadians all bitch about getting the lions share of the tax benefit. Then you try to extrapolate your experience to that of Canadians in general. Somehow I doubt that's close to being the case.
That being said, there are places in rural America where you don't have as many choices as we do here. That's one _big_ reason why I won't live in 'em.
There's a parallel health care system in America provided for our military veterans. My father-in-law is stuck with that beast of a system. I'm sure most anyone subject to the VA system would agree that *government run* system sucks ass. Who in their right mind would want to turn over more of our health care to the government after seeing its performance in the VA system?

I don't have an HMO. I've got PPO coverage. And it's just fine, thank you. I go anywhere I want to *in the world* and it's covered. And for the price of selecting a doctor that participates 'in-network' -- and it's a big network -- I go for just a minor deductible in addition to my monthly premiums. Paying for medical care just is *not* a concern for me.
I've had a choice of cheaper HMO-style coverage. I turned it down, knowing full well that you get what you pay for. So my paychecks are a little smaller than my HMO-choosing co-workers.
So what? Me, my wife and two kids are covered by the best damn medical system anywhere in the world. I'm willing to pay for that. Why isn't anyone else?
It all comes down to choices and priorities. If your priorities are such that taking care of your health and that of your family isn't paramount, then I guess you will eventually have reason to bitch about the cost of health care in America. Too friggin' bad.
What I truly dislike is the idea that because *my* priorities are such that health care IS paramount that I'm accused of being somehow less than compassionate when others who made poor choices complain and I turn a deaf ear. Natural selection at work, IMO.
Funny, there's a pattern here. I buy and pay for medical insurance the same way I buy and pay for automobile insurance. My risks are managed!
So what's the problem?
--Geoff
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On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 15:40:24 -0400, Geoff
I agree with a bit of what written in this portion

Not if you've got BUPA ( British Private health insurance) It allows for the 2 tier system to operate efficiently. Worked wonders for my In-laws to que jump when they needed to.
Here in Canada when we want quicker / more personal service we've got to travel to the US.
Any one that's truly happy with the CDN system either does that, or has been brainwashed into believing the propaganda that the politicians and health unions spread. (And yes that would be the same politicians who fly to the states for same day MRI scans etc)
I like the private choice of the US system. Though I do believe that a health "floor" should be provided for. i.e. ER & communicable conditions

I also agree with portions of the lower section
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Just some recent news to consider when comparing CDN socialized health care to the US system.
--Geoff
Canadian Physiotherapy Association Calls for Access to Needed Health Care May 23, 2004 http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/May2004/23/c6833.html "Ontario's recent decision to delist community-based physiotherapy from OHIP is merely the latest action in a troubling trend towards reduced access to needed physiotherapy services across Canada."
Alberta Premier Ralph Klein to roll out details of health-care reform plan Jun. 29, 2004 http://www.medbroadcast.com/health_news_details.asp?news_idC05&news_channel_id 15 "Klein, long known for pushing more private care options as a way to rescue a public system collapsing under its costs, ratcheted up the rhetoric recently when he suggested Alberta's changes to health delivery in Alberta may violate the Canada Health Act. ... "Our focus is entirely on strengthening the public system at a time when substantial underfunding by the Ottawa Liberals over the past several years has put health systems from coast to coast into perilous situations," he said.
http://www.mercerhr.com/knowledgecenter/reportsummary.jhtml/dynamic/idContent/1138545 "On 18 May 2004, Greg Sorbara, the Ontario Minister of Finance, tabled his government's first budget. The budget focused on health care and education. As widely anticipated, the government introduced a so-called premium which will be administered as a personal income tax. This additional tax is referred to as the Ontario Health Premium" ("OHP"). In addition, certain services currently covered under the Ontario Health Insurance Plan ("OHIP"), such as chiropractic services and routine optometry examinations, will be delisted. Many of the changes introduced under the budget will have an impact on employers.
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Geoff, why is someone in a bordertown, like yours, so interested in the Canadian medical system? I'll bet that you're crossing into Windsor to get your less expensive prescription medication! Shame! ;-)
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Sting Ray wrote:

Cute!
Actually, I'm just an inquisitive guy.
--Geoff
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Geoff wrote:

http://www.medbroadcast.com/health_news_details.asp?news_idC05&news_channel_id 15
http://www.mercerhr.com/knowledgecenter/reportsummary.jhtml/dynamic/idContent/1138545
Seems like maybe a year ago that I heard a radio report that said that the a law had just been passed in Canada (can't recall if it was federal or for a particular province) requiring that clinics be maintained with licensed nurses to administer certain drugs (heroine?) by needle to addicts off the street so that they did not get certain diseases from dirty needles, etc. What idiots people are becoming!
Bill Putney (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x")
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Healthcare is administered provincially Bill. Your recollection is close though - a couple of provinces have decided that it's better to provide clean needles to addicts, rather than have them sharing needles (and diseases!) in shooting galleries. It's not a law, just a practice.
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Sting Ray wrote:

The report I heard siad that the places were staffed with nurses to administer the drugs - not just handing out clean needles - that much I do remember. I thought it was a legislated requirement (provincial or federal?), but maybe I heard wrong - in any case, law or no law, taxpayer money was being payed out to provide the "service" for those places that implemented the practice. Bill Putney (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x")
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wrote:

I think that the government's logic is that some incompetent & deluded nurse would "lower the number of addicts" just like we hear occasionally happening in hospitals around the world.
After all Euthanasia is "illegal" But only if it's caught right?
Gov't implements law allowing someone to become disgusted & frustrated with the system & then gov't washes their hands of the results when the inevitable results occur.
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Although the plan sounds like a waste, the US war on drugs hasn't gone all to well either.

federal
with
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On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:26:12 GMT, "Art"

Wasn't the war on drugs a fund raising effort for the police forces?
I'm always puzzled when one drug ( for example powdered cocaine or rock cocaine <crack>) is treated differently depending upon the target user group.
But I suppose whatever allows the police to strip search your girlfriends and frisk your wives to stop "evil dooers" has got to be good. :-)
Ahh... I should have gone into Law Enforcement..... The perks....
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Full_Name wrote:

Yeah, most of the women I see on 'Cops' are ones I'd want to strip search....NOT!
--Geoff
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On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 09:36:40 -0400, Geoff

The one's you see on "Cops" aren't getting strip searched on camera & the one's they enjoy "searching" sure as hell aren't going to be submitted to "Cops" for their partners to see.....
That's I'm thinking anyways. (probably wrong, but it sounds good no?)
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On Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Bill Putney wrote:

I think that you did.

Remember the old oil filter commercial "Pay a little now or a lot later"? The principle applies here. Pay a little now to provide clean needles and constant availability of rehab services. Or, pay a lot later to treat them and those they've infected when they have big, expensive diseases like Syphillis and AIDS.
It's a strategy known as "harm minimalization". The Netherlands example shows us it can be very effective at minimizing societal costs of drug abuse. It doesn't sit well with those who think drug abuse will cease to happen if they just make enough pious moral denouncements of drug addicts.
-DS
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And if that doesn't work, make the drug laws sricter! And if the pushers don't want to be arrested, disarm the rest of society! And if money laundering happens, limit how much cash people can hold! And, hey, using drug money to mount a legal defense is *wrong*, so confiscate assets before they're convicted! And if they somehow get off the hook, make 'em sue to get their assets back! Hang on, the legal procedures to recover the assets are publically available? Tell the libraries to shred that!
See how much we can improve society by stamping out drugs?
--
Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605
Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002
  Click to see the full signature.
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wrote:

I like your thinking Joe. Ever thought of a run for President?
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On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 12:00:42 -0400, "Daniel J. Stern"

Just my $0.02 Most CDN's have a choice of MD's & in emergencies they tend to have the service they need. (not the best but "usually" good enough)
Why am I in favor of a BASIC level of universal health care? I'll provide an example and you tell me what you think is the right answer:
A "poor" person with drug resistant TB stands in the DMV office coughing next to your wife and young child. Do you care? Your teenager goes out on a group date with some school friends. One of whom cannot afford full treatment for their syphilis which is now drug resistant because they only get ER care. Do you care yet?
There's being selfish, and then there's being "penny wise & pound foolish". I think you can surmise which category I put people in who cannot see the need for basic universal health care. Polio wasn't wiped out by only vaccinating those that could afford the vaccine.
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wrote:

Basic yes... which is usually able to be provided through medicare/caid. Plus there are several free clinics all over, especially metro areas. My stepmother is a pharmacist at one in Detroit. They have doctors and nurses there and dispense meds for free or low cost in some cases (low cost like $1). The only argument I say to that... not really an argument, but a thought really, is even if basic was provided what is to prevent someone from not caring enough to go see a doctor to find out they have the TB or syphillis and still able to spread it to your wife, child, or daughter? This is a country that has many lazy people, many people with too much 'pride' to go to a free clinic, or just too stubborn to ask for help. Just a thought. Not bunking ya.
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