NUMMI Story on "This American Life"

Page 2 of 2  
C. E. White wrote:


Depends on the car.
The Chevy Aveo is built in Korea. The Toyota Sienna is built in the US and has something like 85% US content.
If American-made is a major criteria, then you have to go by the particular model.

What percent of cars built in Japan by Toyota for the US are Chinese? How about cars built by Toyota in the US?

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 03/29/2010 06:03 AM, dr_jeff wrote:

don't point out facts to ed - they get in his way.

--
nomina rutrum rutrum

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

The Aveo has 1% domestic content and while the current Sienna includes something like 85% doemstic content, the Toyota competitor closest to the Aveo, the Yaris, has 0% doemstic content.

True. I have posted links to the Government data that has car by car listings (see http://tinyurl.com/ybzd59d ). While it is true the Sienna (and Tundra, and several other Toyota models) have very high domestic content, Toyota imports at least 14 vehicles (Toyota, Lexus, Scion models) that have 0% domestic content. No major automotive manufacturer sells a vehicle in the US with more than 90% domestic content (domestic = US plus Canada, but not Mexico...seems strange since NAFTA sort of created a quasi-domestic market of US / Canada / Mexico). According to an article at http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2009/07/domestic-parts-content-and-automakers.html GM's overall domestic content is estimated to be 69%. Toyota is at 44%. I have no idea what percentage of the 31% of GM content that is non-domestic comes from China, or Mexico, or Australia, or Brazil, or Europe. I know GM builds some engines in China that are installed in US cars. As far as I know Toyota doesn't do this yet, but they have set up engine factories in China. So I don't see the difference. Both companies operate in China. Both companies ship parts into and out of China. I can't see how GM is bad for doing this and Toyota isn't as well. I don't at all like the way things are going with respect to China. However, I can't see how you can separate how China is operating now from how the Japanese and then the Koreans have run their car industries over the last 60 years. You might find it interesting to look at how the Europeans felt about GM and Ford in the early parts of the last century. Or you might want to investigate how the Japanese government treated Ford and GM operations in Japan over the years. There is no level playing field when you are dealing with the Japanese or the Koreans, or the Chinese, or the French, or the.......

I have no idea. Could you answer that question for GM? I am sure both GM and Toyota buy parts in China. I have no idea of the percentage. Denso (the captive Toyota parts supplier) has opened many component factories in China (and Thailand, and Indonesia, and India). Do you think Toyota doesn't take advantage of low cost suppliers? Do you think Toyota has some inherent bias against operating in China? If so, then why set up factories in China?
Ed
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 03/29/2010 07:43 AM, C. E. White wrote:

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2009/07/domestic-parts-content-and-automakers.html
but you do about toyota? yeah, right.

and only one does so specifically for the american market and american taxpayer expense...

how odd - toyota buys up to 85% of componentry for it's american-made vehicles from AMERICAN SUPPLIERS. if they can do that and make a profit, why can't gm? it's not like gm don't make their european vehicles with european components and make a profit - and that's much higher cost environment than here.

er, so it can sell to the chinese market because china won't allow imports otherwise?

yeah, ed, the rider of the trojan horse.

--
nomina rutrum rutrum

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I give up. Expecting reasonable responses fromn thje insane is a waste of time.
Ed
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 03/29/2010 06:35 PM, C. E. White wrote:

not wanting to get ripped off is "insane"? daring to point out the simple fact that taxpayers are supporting a company that is shipping their jobs overseas is "insane"?
au contraire my friend - the astroturfing ethicsless shill that expects to show up and bullshit all the people all the time is insane.
--
nomina rutrum rutrum

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Toyota took advantage of the cash for clunkers program and the hybrid car rebates to sell cars in the US. Many of the cars have no domestic content (for instance, the Prius). Various US state and local government have provided tax and other incentives (including cash) to Toyota to attract manufacturing plants. Aren't these cases of Toyota using US taxpayer money? And while in many cases the US Toyota plants do generate new jobs, aren't they counter-balanced by jobs loses at GM plants? How many US jobs were lost becasue Toyota decided to shut down the NUMMI plant? If Toyota was so interested in creating US jobs, wouldn' they have kept that plant going?

And you know this how? It is illogical to think that Toyota and Denso have set up factories and joint ventures all over China and that they aren't taking advantage of these low cost suppliers.

I am not trying to defend the Chinese. Most of the negative things you say about the Chinese government (as opposed to individual workers) is true. I'd rather we not do buisness with the Chinese. I am just pointing out that you are a huge hyporite for attacking GM and ignoring Toyota when it is certain that they are doing exactly the same sorts of things when it comes to purchasing componets form the lowest cost suppliers, including Chinese suppliers. Even if Toyota doesn't import a single componet from China (which is not possible) then they are still working with the Chinese and creating jobs in China and building induistries in China that will eventually compete with the rest of the world. Damn the difference between what GM is doing in China and what Toyota is doing in China. Your attempts to igonore this tells me you don't really care about GM sourcing parts in China, it is just an issue you have siezed on in an effort to tar GM. You hate GM and are just looking for reason to spread the hate. Just stop using attacks on me as a medium for spreading your hate of GM. If you want to attack GM, open a separate thread in the GM group and quit trying to use a defense of Toyota as a means of launching your attacks on GM. Defend Toyota based on the facts related to Toytoa. Don't defend Toyota by saying I hate GM, so Toyota must be good. ......

Granted. For certain you make no sense to me. It makes no sense that you defend Toyota while attacking GM over the doemstic content issue. No matter how your want to look at things, GM still has a much higher average domestic content than Toyota and employs far more American workers than Toyota. My assumption is that you were in some way injured by GM and that your hate of GM is preventing you from seeing the illogic of your attacks.
Ed
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Another cross-postie, kf it goes, bye-bye.

--


Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

When I first read about NUMMI, it seemed that Toyota got into this thing as an accomodation to GM. When GM folded, there was no reason to continue, this most expensive manufacturing site in America.
I could be wrong. If GM had no alternative, then neither did Toyota.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I had hoped that GM would learn why Toyota was able to sell its Corolla from NUMMI (I'm driving one) for $1000 or so more than the Geo Prism that came down the same line and was worked on by the same workers. They didn't.
Charles Grozny
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
snipped-for-privacy@sprynet.com says...

A relative has had a Prism for many years. Good car. I had hoped that consumers would learn not to pay $1000 more for the Corolla. They didn't. Resale is better for the Toyota if sold still young. But when you get north of 100k miles it starts turning into a net loser on that score.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 03/28/2010 07:20 PM, Bob Cooper wrote:

eh? how do you figure that? year for year, any year, what is the resale value of the prism vs the corolla?
--
nomina rutrum rutrum

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
snipped-for-privacy@privacy.net says...

You can run numbers on kbb.com. Believe the numbers or not. But many private buyers/sellers use kbb to set the starting bargaining price for a used car. Bottom line is once a car is +10 years old and +100k miles the kbb resale value difference for Corollas and Prizms begins to merge, going below the $1000 initial Corolla premium mentioned. So if you intend to drive your car beyond those years/miles The Corolla offers no advantage. Unless you just need the Corolla label for personal reasons. Buying a 5 year old Corolla instead of a Prizm was always a sucker play. And according to my relative she saved close to $2000 buying the Prizm over the Corolla when she bought it new. But I don't know the truth, what rebates, etc were offered. People often lie about cars, even relatives. I do know it's a '95 Geo Prizm and last time I drove it it had about 150k miles and ran and drove well. She takes it to a Toyota dealer for maintenance.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 03/29/2010 03:24 AM, Bob Cooper wrote:

iow, you won't answer the simple question i asked...
--
nomina rutrum rutrum

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
snipped-for-privacy@privacy.net says...

You slow? First sentence in my reply. Or just make up some numbers of your own. You're pretty good at making stuff up.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 03/28/2010 05:20 PM, hls wrote:

gm's manufacturing facilities in germany are considerably more expensive than any they operate here. more expensive labor [MUCH more powerful unions], components, logistics, etc. yet gm are able to make a profit on those operations. odd how they say they're unable to do so here.

--
nomina rutrum rutrum

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Are you sure about that? I keep reading how much money Opel has been losing...
http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/gm-opel%5Cs-threatened-lossjobs-strains-eu-principles/377554 /
From http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100325/ANE/100329938 :
"GM is seeking 1.8 billion euros ($2.4 billion) in loans or loan guarantees from countries with Opel/Vauxhall plants towards the cost of a 3.7 billion euro restructuring to return the money-losing unit to profit in 2012.
"So far the UK has pledged 300 million euros. Spain and Poland are still considering GM's request.
"GM is seeking about 1 billion euros from Germany where Opel and half of GM's European workforce are based.
"The U.S. automaker said earlier this month it would provide 1.9 billion euros in equity and loans to Opel, tripling its funding and cutting its request for state aid in a bid to win over European governments.
"Opel plans to cut 8,300 jobs in factories across Europe, shutter a factory in Antwerp, Belgium and reduce production capacity by 20 percent."
Ed
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 03/29/2010 05:07 AM, C. E. White wrote:

yes, i'm sure about that.

http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/gm-opel%5Cs-threatened-lossjobs-strains-eu-principles/377554 /
ed, you know about politics, right? [of course you do!] you know about international accounting consolidations, right? you know that you can expense in one country and profit in another don't you ed? and why the FUCK would you borrow money on the commercial markets when you can crank the government cash lever and get money given to you with just a few well orchestrated press releases and astroturf campaigns?
--
nomina rutrum rutrum

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

Those of you who buy into this coverage being "pro-Toyota" and "anti- GM" are delusional and have you head in the sand. Listen to it again without you instinctual bias flaming and you will realize the story stands on its own and is a fine and objective piece of journalism. Your attitude undermines the US economy as we lose the new jobs battle to China and the other economies for true green technology developing now.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
primemover wrote:

It's a very good piece of journalism. I find it different in that the style of the show is different than other "This American Life" Episodes.
I think its objectivity is limited. The story that it tells is the story of the people who worked for NUMMI, GM and Toyota (at NUMMI and other facilities in the US and Japan). To me, I don't think that the show was about being anti-GM or pro-Toyota, but rather, just to tell the stories of the people.
Jeff

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Related Threads

    Motorsforum.com is a website by car enthusiasts for car enthusiasts. It is not affiliated with any of the car or spare part manufacturers or car dealers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.