Re: GM's Dick Wagonwheel dont wanna rub butts in bed with french

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Jon Patrick wrote:


It would be interesting to see what the number would be without the special credits for "flex fuel" vehicles both Ford and GM get.
It would also be interesting to see the number for vehicles without sales to rental car fleets included. One of the reasons that the US makers put so many Cobalt and Malibu class vehicles into rental fleets is to improve the mix of vehicles sold.
I suppose that the question is how to define the word struggle I used. It is admittedly imprecise!
John
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Jeff wrote:

the foreign stuff is better in all cases. they are all over reported though, where did you get htose numbers.
I believe more fromt fueleconomy.gov or canada Energuide.
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I went to www.ford.com, choose three Ford cars, and used the comparisons that Ford provides.
Jeff
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Jeff wrote:

The MPG or L/100km reported by ALL mfg's is drastically overreported, and does not show true mileage.
Check fueleconomy.gov or canada energuide.
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Picasso wrote:

and it's not supposed to. The mileage ratings are for comparison purposes only. They are run in a controlled repeatable environment so that you can make a decision on an apples to apples comparison. Also, since they are run on a stand there is no factor for aerodynamic efficiency.

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why, me wrote:

Well I don't look at them and believe them... but i'm sure a lot of people buying cars do.
But I suppose you're right, as long as the process is standard, then they can serve for comparisions.... so long as htey are done properly
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Mike Hunter wrote:

Then why did you write that, except to at least imply that GM and Ford were better than the foreign car makers? Are GM and Ford vehicles more fuel efficient than similar import brand vehicles?
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You may infer whatever you wish. I did not imply anything of the kind, I simply made a statement of fact and that was many buyer assume they must by Japanese make vehicle that get good fuel mileage. The fact is that is a enormous assumption, since both GM and Ford offer more different vehicles that get 30 or more MPG than does ANY import
As to what is more fuel efficient it depends on your needs, if you can settle for an underpowered mid size car you can buy a 4 cy Camry, or a better yet a 4 cy Honda Civic or Ford Focus that get better mileage for much less money. If you want enough power to haul five people, and all of their stuff more safely, you need to buy a V6 Camry or Accord. Or you can buy a V6 Fusion for much less. If that is the case you might want to look at a safer more powerful V8 Impala that sells for less than a V6 Camry and get the same kind of mileage.
It all depends are ones needs. I know of several people, who live in the mountain area of N. E. PA, that bought small cars thinking they will get better mileage only to discover that running in the lower gears needed to maintain speed on the mountains, the mileage if far from ideal. One even traded his 05 Civic on a larger 06 V8 domestic and his mileage is averaging on five MPG less than he got with the 4 cy Civic, on his 150 mile commute over the mountains to and from work.
mike hunt

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Mike Hunter wrote:

Thanks, I was waiting for your permission to do that.

Why do you assume that buyers assume that? I never have but instead I always check the individual models. But it's disingenuous of you to claim that you're merely trying to point out facts because whenever somebody criticizes GM or Ford, you reply by saying they have more high-gas mileage cars than any foreign company, they sell more cars than any foreign company, etc., you know very well that you do that to persuade people into believing that GM and Ford are better. IOW you sound like somebody from the sales dept.

So what? I don't buy entire model lines, but individual cars.

I mean, which comparable vehicles get the best mileage - comparable in 0-60 times, amount of interior room, cargo capacity, vehicle weight, etc?. IOW, can you show that GM or Ford models use less fuel than similar German or Japanese models?

Consumer Reports said the city/highway/average mileage figures were:
Impala V-6: 13/29/20 Camry V-6: 16/32/23 Camry 4: 16/36/24 (non hybrid)
They didn't test the V-8 Impala but said the Monte Carlo SS was similar and that its V-8 averaged 17 MPG
So how can you claim that the V-8 impala gets the same kind of mileage as the V-6 Camry, unless you're relying on the unrealistic EPA figures?
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You can spin things any way you wish. You obviously buy what you prefer. Surely you do not think other buyers make their own chose, as to what they believe is the best vehicle for their money, when they chose to buy a vehicle? If you don't believe EPA comparisons, based of the same test criteria, whom can you believe? I do not assume anything when it come to where buyers prefer to spend their hard earned money, it is a demonstrable fact that more buyers choose to buy from GM and Ford than any import. But then of course most buyers are not as astute as you, right? ;)
mike hunt

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Mike Hunter wrote:

I'm not spinning anything but just presenting some gas mileage figures that go against your contention that a V-8 Impala gets fuel economy comparable to a V-6 Camry's. Where is your proof? You haven't presented any.

The fact that I gave Consumer Reports fuel economy numbers and calle the EPA's "unrealistic" obviously means I prefer the former over the latter. But I don't care whose figures you use, so long as you use them in a consistent manner, i.e., compare all cars by EPA numbers and not with a mix of EPA and someone else's numbers.

Again, I don't care. You need to back up your implication that car quality correlates with popularity, something you haven't done yet.
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You are entitled to your opinion, but it still that of a minority, when it comes to what buyers in the US actually choose to buy. ;)
mike hunt

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Mike Hunter wrote:

Why is it so important to be in the majority? Minority groups are sometimes better.
All I've asked is for you to prove that the V-8 Impala gets the same kind of mileage as the V-6 Camry, and you've repeatedly refused to provide any. Can you?
EPA gas mileage (highway/city/overall):
Camry V-6: 31/22/25 Impala V-6: 29/20/23 Impala V-8: 27/18/21
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out of curiousity, I checked out a better apples-to-apples comparison: Malibu 4 : 32/24/27 Camry 4: 33/24/27 (2007 model) Accord 4: 34/24/28 ('06) Fusion 4: 32/24/27 (since this IS a ford group) Stratus 4: 30/22/25 Mazda 6, 4cyl: 31/24/26
What absolutely jumps out at me here are a couple of facts. 1. the Malibu manages to match the Camry, in spite of the 4 speed vs 5 speed problem. Listening to the general media, you'd think the camry was the most fuel-sipping midsized around. 2. The stratus gets, relatively speaking, terrible mileage. The whole platform shows it's age. 3. The fusion, WITH a 5speed tranny, still gets slightly worse fuel economy than I'd expect.
I may just do a 'small car' comparison as well. I found this quite interesting. Anyone wanna do a full-sized truck and/or suv one? JP
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Jon Patrick wrote:

I should warn you the EPA city fuel economy cycle simulates very light urban driving, which tends to favor slightly underpowered vehicles that in real life will have slightly worse fuel economy than their V6 versions.
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Buy the Malibu or Stratus. Either has more soul and personality than the bland Japanese Camry/Accord. I've driven all these cars many times. Up until last year, I delivered cars for new car dealerships. Drive a burgundy Camry to Detroit, pick up a silver Camry, drive it back to the dealership in Columbus, that type of thing.
-
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What we are taking about is opinions., at least you are finally willing to admit your opinion is that of a minority. Nothing wrong with minorities I am a member of one.
I don't do homework for my own grand children what make you think I will do yours? Search the EPA site as I did for the information you seek, WBMA ;)
mike hunt

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Mike Hunter wrote:

I'm talking about gas mileage but of something quantifiable and that isn't merely an opinion.
Where is your proof that the V-8 Impala gets about the same gas mileage as the V-6 Camry?

So why is it so important for you to be in the "majority" when it comes to car choices? Don't say you're merely pointing out a fact because you wouldn't keep saying GM outsells Toyota unless in your opinion GM was better than Toyota. To deny this is to be less htan honest.

I posted EPA numbers. They show that you're wrong about the gas mileages of the V-8 Impala verses the V-6 Camry's.
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