Re: In-the-tank fuel pumps cause death and destruction

That was cold! 8^)

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my adddress with the letter 'x')

Well lets do the math. As I stated in a another post it takes about 7 minutes to fill a 2 gallon can from the schrader valve on my car. That is 3.5 minutes per 1 gallon with a stock OEM pump. 3.5 minutes x 19 gallons is 66.5 minutes. The pump in my Crown Vic is rated at 21 GPH. It delivers out the schrader valve at just under 19 GPH. That is why I say bull-shit to the claim of pumping out 19 gallons or 72 liters in half an hour. It can not be done with a stock pump in the tank, and it cant be done with a transfer pump pulling the fuel out the schrader valve. That is especially true if the pump in the tank does not work, it will provide too much resistance to the flow and most likely cause the plastic fuel lines to collapse.

The claim was to be able to pump out 19 gallons in 1/2 hour through the fuel pressure port on the fuel rail. It can not be done. The pump on a Crown vic is rated at 20GPH. To make the claim true you would need to at least double the GPH and take away the normal restrictions of the fuel system. I did not say you can not pump fuel from the pressure port, I do it on a regularly. I'll say it again, it takes on average 7 minutes to fill a 2 gallon fuel container. Do the math. The claim is bull-shit.

Were you by chance a bored suburban kid, or were you the kid behind the counter at the hardware store (or both)?

Ouch!!

Forget for the moment that you are technically right. You think you could convince the management, lawyers, insurance companies, and stock holders that, statistically over the lifetime of 20 million vehicles, the perfect conditions resulting in huge publicity and multi-million dollar lawsuits would never be met - not even one time? You know - seriously - taking your paint cans and eyedroppers into the conference room just might do it.

Reminds of the engineer that told me I was over-reacting when I went ballistic when a 3 foot long flame shot out of a known leaking hydrogen fitting due to a welder welding above it and showering down sparks - oh

- he had draped the hydorgen equipment with a canvas tarp before he started "to be safe". He was telling me that the conditions for hydrogen exploding were so specific that the chances of it happening were extremely small. The funny thing is that hydrogen in a process oven not 10 feet from that very spot where the flame shot out had exploded, blowing the door off of the oven so hard that it moved a 40 ton press a few inches when it struck it. Fortunately, no one was standing in front of the door at the time. Here's the kicker: That incident happened - not *AFTER* the 3 foot flame incident, but 3 years

*BEFORE* that - and he still told me I was over-reacting - that an explosion could never happen.

Saying "Oh - that could never happen - let's go ahead and do it" is how you end up on the 6 o'clock news. 8^)

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my adddress with the letter 'x')

I really hate to be the one to say it, but there probably is some truth to what he says. I can't speak for the auto industry, but where I worked they eliminated probably 95% of the lockwashers used in assembly. They compensated by raising the torque values on the bolts and nuts. This was many years ago and it is still common to have to replace bolts during or after assy because the bolts begin to stretch and specified torque can't be achieved.

H

That's odd, my Service Manual still refers to it as the 'firewall'.

But that isn't the reason that diesels take water in the fuel much more seriously. The reason is that diesels have very high pressure injector pumps. These pumps operate with very tight tolerances and any water that gets into them is very likely to cause instantaneous failure of a very expensive piece of hardware. That is why diesel engines have much better filtration sytems (dirt is as bad as water obviously) and take extreme measures to keep water out of the injector pump.

Matt

Well, then don't....we are talking about the "auto industry".

So what? They have eliminated many lockwashers in the auto industry, but they now use other methods to lock the bolts/nuts in place. On GM vehicles, it's mainly thru the use of lock nuts, with either a deformed section of the thread, or a plastic insert in the upper portion of the nut. On bolts, a lot of "loctite" is in use from the factory.

There are also many bolts used on the newer engines that use "torque to yield", but these bolts are fine during their lifetime and are simply replaced when you have to loosen them. They are designed that way (to stretch when torqued). But that's really a different topic and has nothing to do with what lock washers are trying to achieve.

Ian

Hi...

If it isn't to be referred to as a firewall anymore; then I doubt it's to prevent my believing that a fire is possible...

Be more inclined to think they don't want me assume that their firewall would necessarily protect me from one.

Take care.

Ken

Correction - it was a 15? gallon tank in less than 1/2 hour. 1983? Toyota Supra. That is roughly 68 liters? Been a few years so I'm not 100% sure of the tank size.

The transfer unit used a roller cell type external EFI pump rated for something like 350HP or 150 liters per hour at 20 some PSI IIRC. Emptying the tank through the line was about 30% faster than through the access valve. Flipping a pair of valves on the unit and dropping the hose into the filler neck refueled the car in something like 20 minutes. Trying to suck the fuel out the access port with the valve installed was hopeless..

I'm talking about doing it in the shop, where safety regulations REQUIRE a fuel transfer pump/tank unit. I made the unit we used for about 6 years while I was service manager - and it may still be in use today. I left the dealership in question about 18 years ago

What beetle had gravity feed? Every one I ever saw/owned/worked on needed the fuel pump as the tank was at about the same level as the carb and roughly 8 feet ahead of it. A front mounted pump pushing the fuel would have reduced the tendancy for the system to vapour lock, which my '49 did all too regularly in warm weather (and there was seldom anything OTHER than warm weather in Zambia) running on the optimistically 70 something octane regular leaded fuel available in the early seventies.

Now a Model "T" ford was gravity feed. I believe the model "A" was too. My 1928 Chevy National had a pump that drew the fuel from the rear mounted tank by engine vacuum, and then fed it from the #48 juice can sized pump reservoir to the carb by gravity.

The early Fords would occaisionally run out of gas going up a hill, so you needed to BACK up steep hills. It also helped that reverse was geared lower than 1st.

The intank fuel pumps I've worked on are totally wet, with fuel flowing right through the motor.

And none of the fuel pumps I've worked on were gear pumps.

Lock washers don't always work either. If I am bolting something that needs to stay bolted I'll use a lock nut with a deformed thread section, or take a standard nut and turn it into a locknut with a deformed section with a hammer and punch.

Ted

If you REALLY want it to stay put, do as the aviation folks do and drill and safety wire it.

Matt

WAAAAAAAAA!!!!! WAAAAAAA!!!! STUpid cry babies! :)

News Story One:

Thursday, October 28, 2004 · Last updated 4:11 a.m. PT

Inhalation of toxins blamed for Des Moines fire death

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

DES MOINES, Wash. -- A man who died in a garage fire after gasoline spilled out of a truck that was being repaired died partly from inhaling toxic fumes, investigators said.

David E. Russ, 61, identified Wednesday as the dead man, also had burns on more than 90 percent of his body, investigators in the King County medical examiner's office said.

Russ and two other men was trying to replace the fuel pump on a pickup truck Monday when the leaking fuel caught fire as the trio tried to push the truck out of a detached garage.

All three ran outside, but Russ went back in and was trapped when the roof collapsed, Fire Battalion Chief Victor Pennington said.

News Story Two:

Local auto dealership heavily damaged in fire By Virgil Cochran Lamar Daily News

Thursday, October 28, 2004 -

Tri-County Ford on Highway 50-287 north of Lamar was severely damaged by a midmorning fire yesterday, but the manager Jeff Travis said the business will be up and running again in just a few days.

Travis and Prowers County Rural Fire Chief Marvin Rosencrans said the fire began when mechanics were attempting to drain a fuel tank on a vehicle in the mechanic shop to replace a fuel pump. A fuel transfer pump developed an electrical short, which triggered the blaze.

It rapidly engulfed the shop area of the building, but everyone managed to get out safely, Travis said.

Tri-County will have temporary office trailers set up on the lot by next week, Travis said, and will be open for sales of new and used vehicles. In the meantime, all automobiles for sale will remain on the lot, and customers are welcome to drop by and shop, and even negotiate deals. But the business won't be able to finalize deals until the temporary offices are set up and computer equipment is up and running again next week.

Travis said Tri-County is also negotiating for temporary headquarters for its mechanic shops, but it may be a few more days before the shop functions of the business are up and running.

Eight cars in the service area were destroyed and the service garage itself was heavily damaged if not totally destroyed, but Rosencrans said damage to the office and parts storage area was limited to mostly smoke and water damage.

Local firefighters were called to the scene about 10:40 a.m. yesterday, and the Prowers Rural Fire Department was assisted by the Lamar, Wiley, and Holly Fire Departments.

As for the existing building, Travis said the business was well insured and that he would meet with insurance adjusters sometime today.

LOL you never worked on diesels, have you? They all use mechanical fuel pumps and they typically deliver up to 60 PSI regulated and can be forced to deliver much, much more pressure...My solution to the explosion hazard discussed here is this: drain the tank and displace the 02 by injecting nitrogen (very common in shops) into the tank and BE CAREFUL. No technique substitutes common sense.

BTW, I'm an ex diesel mechanic, now an EE...

Called a "stover nut". Acceptable under the cowl on a plane, where nylocls and peletted bolts don't pass muster.