Re: Mercedes-Benz hit with suit

WE have endured smoking, clattering, low performance diesel engines in luxury cars both foreign and domestic. We are DONE with that experiment. Snobs? Sure. Diesel is not a symbol of "enilightened green" here, nor should it be anywhere else. ;-) Oil in ... chunks out.

Here's a handy emission control history for both California and the US.

Another for CARB in general: CARB and EPA started and lead Europe in emission legislation. But of course, divergent paths have developed due to economic and political influences. ;-)

CNG = Compressed Natural Gas

DaimlerChrysler diesels passed very strict 2007 EPA emissions levels this summer, which require a diesel to run almost as clean as gasoline engines. The engines are currently undergoing durability tests at EPA for no degradation for 10 years or 150,000 miles.

Wolfgang

Wolfgang.... the word I meant to use was "led".... past tense. I spelled correctly the word I didn't mean to use. Sorry.

Diesel, not matter how you spiff them up are a tough sell here in southern California for the reasons I have already mentioned.

The point made by several people is that they are not (low performance) any more. Don't compare a modern turbodiesel with a version from 1980.

I had a look at the emission control history site. To me the most interesting statistic that already in 1930 there was a car for every three people. Ten years later the car ratio was even higher (2.8m for 7m people). Bearing in mind that a large percentage is under driving age this is truly stunning. Shows you how rich the area was/is.

Given the poor location of LA weatherwise it's not surprising something had to be done to curb emissions.

DAS

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See below.

DAS

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In news:3fc5dd45$0$24060$ snipped-for-privacy@news.dial.pipex.com, Dori Schmetterling being of bellicose mind posted:

Let me cut to the quick..... What's left of the Brits with enough balls to really riot left for America over 200 yrs ago. ;-) You all keep voting for socialism and taxing yourselves into oblivion.

CO2 emission is just an abstract way the Greens have seduced everyone who fancies themselves "progressive" or and "enviromentalist" into turning against burning any fossil fuel.

So Americans are better rioters than the British.

Hooray we are number one!

So its really just a smokescreen dreamed up by a political party.

I do not understand why people argue with Mr. Phillip. He clearly took Mr. Twain's advice.

.

I happen to enjoy Daneil N. Robinson too! ;-)

Nothing that heavy sound insulation can't cope with...

Old notions about Diesel engines still apply: slow to rev up, noisy and smelly when not warmed up, more expensive, heavier, etc.

I understand that with typical traffic patterns Diesel can be the only way Europeans can get a torquey engine, but it's more a symptom of the problem than a solution.

IMO, it's the same level of mindless popularity that SUVs get in the US: few need it, many want it. Analogously in Europe: few put so many miles to offset the higher acquisition cost of Diesel, many want it...

Much quieter than before, but quite noisier than a gas engine. And the noise is creepting up with multiple jets in the injection...

Because it's cheaper to run. Most people who buy those "top" MB and BMW (let's face it, about half of their sales come from the C and 3 series) stretch their finances fot the status symbol. Not to mention that lower ranks get company cars in Europe than in America...

Keep in mind that BMW doesn't sell 4-cylinder cars in America because power is more important to Americans than fuel economy. Few wealth distribution schemes make all the difference in this case...

Europe started controlling emissions in the late 80s because CARB started doing the same in the early 70s...

Check your facts straight, for EPA has always mandated that Diesel engines emit as much pollutants as gas engines. As a matter of fact, it never distinguished engines by its fuel, only by its application.

If MB is developing Diesel engines that will finaly be as clean as gas engines, excellent. But right now they emit more unhealthy pollutants than gas engines, namely NOx and particulates.

They may look the same on paper, but Diesel engines lose steam much earlier (about half way through the red-line) than gas engines.

Diesel engines are so poor that they need a turbocharger to match a gas engine...

Yes, that's my point here. Modern diesels are turbocharged (that's what "turbodiesel" implies...)

My W123 200D from 1980 onlyhad 60 PS to 'carry' a weight of 1400 kg. Of course it was slow. 0 - 60 in a week, as I have stated several times (and Juergen also keeps saying about his W123 240D ). No comparison with today's turbo engines.

DAS

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See below.

DAS

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Oh dear, oh DEAR!

Lombardy is in Italy. I am talking about rioting Italians.

DAS

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I admire the leadership exhibited by the British government. Calling for the termination of gasoline and diesel took courage.

Al Gore was right when he called for the death of internal combustion.

Lombardy should be applauded for stepping up and not going with the flow. It is the responsibility of the state to act in cases such as this and to not act is an abdication of the responsibility invested in the state by its people. The worst I can say is that their timetable may be too ambitious.

If we do move to a hydrogen based fuel system could we use hydrogen in a combustion engine as an interim step?

Anyway, great stuff from the article quoted below.

LONDON - The British government's chief science adviser has called for a complete ban on selling gasoline- or diesel-powered cars, reports the February 17 issue of "The Independent" here.

Prof. David King, who the article says is Prime Minister Tony Blair's chief scientific adviser, refused to pinpoint any date when such a ban should come into effect, but said "green" cars would soon be widely available, adding that major car and oil companies such as Ford, Chrysler (he obviously meant DaimlerChrysler), Shell and BP already have an "impressive" joint project to test various hydrogen-fueled cars in the United States.

In the initial article, King told the paper Britain should follow the example of Italy's Lombardy region, a heavily industrialized part of the country, which is to ban the sale of fossil-fuel powered cars beginning January 1,

2005. "I think we need a State of Lombardy-type statement from the UK," the paper quoted King as saying. "We need to be pressing for the economic drivers which are required to bring these technologies to Britain." .

No, check your facts. Just one example: Under EPA Tier 1 for passenger cars FTP 75, its for 0.4 g NOx for gas and 1.0 g NOx for diesel.

But in 2007 the limits for gas and diesel will be the same. And as I said previously, DaimlerChrysler's diesels passed those very strict 2007 limits in testing performed by the EPA this summer.

Wolfgang

My W123 240D auto Euro sedan with 72 PS needs

24,7 sec from 0-62.1 mph and has a top speed of 86 mph so it is _really_ slow.

Of course not.

But the old non-turbo engines are much simpler which also means much easier to maintain, need cheap low-quality dino oil only and are very reliable as they simply do not have parts like turbochargers, intercoolers or electronics.

That is the reason why Indian car manufacturer Bajaj-Tempo still uses this ancient OM 616 in their current verhicles, e.g. an ambulance car

Most other Bajaj-Tempo engines are derivates of the OM 616.

Juergen - drove all the different W123 diesels with 55 to 125 PS in the past 20+ years

So don't taut Diesel as the engine of choice except for those short on cash. In America gas is about 4x as cheap as in Europe. Most cars have 150HP plus and at least 6 cylinders. We don't need stinking Diesel when gas is taxed at 30%, not 300%.

As I said...

Yeah, but not because Diesel are so refined that even top MB and BMW use them, as the post to which I replied implied...

From what I hear, it's not uncommon for middle managers throughout Europe to have company cars, something that only general managers and vice-presidents of companies get here in the US.

No, you're assuming that traffic patterns in the US are like in Europe. It is not. My average speed commuting is 40MPH and average fuel consumption of either of my 3400 and 3700lbs, 200+HP V6 cars is

22-24MPG (around 10Km/l).

I spend about $110 (about 6 to 7 tanks) per month to have both cars in use by both I and my wife. Why would I ever want Diesel??? You may have a hard time thinking that not everything that's good for Europe is good for the rest of the world...