Re: Mercedes-Benz hit with suit

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You mean Ethanol, not Methanol...
Ethanol can be made from corn; however, there currently isn't enough Ethanol production to satisfy every State that requires oxygenated fuel.
Had States required the use of Ethanol in the first place, instead of allowing MTBE, there wouldn't be a problem today. The States have only themselves to blame for MTBE contamination.
BTW, the reason that you get 10% less gas mileage on oxygenated fuel is that 10% of what is going through your engine isn't fuel. Think about it...
--Dan
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In being of bellicose mind posted:

Well, that is an overstatement. Recall alcohol burning dragsters?
http://www.afdc.doe.gov/altfuel/met_general.html
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* Philip

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On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 21:18:41 -0000

of methanol (methanol was sold instead of bootleg vodka) last autumn. In addition methanol is chemically aggressive and not all plastic and rubber and metals are suitable for methanol transportation
Helar
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The casualties from a fire or from poisoning? If the latter, all alcohols are toxic, it's just that ethanol is the least toxic and can be tolerated in relative small quantities (ever tried drinking pure ethanol, e.g. near-pure 95%?).
It is thought that an intermediate product in the metabolism of alcohol gives rise to poisoning (including hangovers). Not sure how that is directly relevant to the use of an alcohol as a fuel/fuel additive. Will car get drunk or go blind?
What do they do in Brazil?
DAS --
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They use huge amounts of arable land to plant sugar cane for ethanol production while children die from hunger...
Using fertile land to power automobiles is the dumbest thing a country can do.
As a Brazilian who's owned 3 alcohol-fueled cars, I have an idea of what I'm talking about.
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Would it be better if they lived without the income from sugar cane? What is the difference if the income comes from sugar cane for ethanol compared with helping to provide a bigger surplus of commodity food crops?
Huw
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sugar cane to power their cars instead, The money from it's sale cannot be used to buy food IF they don't grow the food to sell in the first place...
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There is no shortage of food. There is a shortage of income to buy food. The farmer will grow food if there is an income to be derived from it. The issue of growing industrial crops is not linked to food production other than both being cultivated by farmers. Your argument could also be used to attack the growing of all food for export.
Huw
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In

Using alcohol as a motor fuel, what are the primary three exhaust pollutants? I seem to recall formaldehyde being of concern.
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I don't know about the composition of alcohol-based fuel, but I can tell you that formaldehyde is an oxidation product of methanol. Thus you would get this if the fuel contains methanol and is incompletely burned.
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A cursory internet search confirmed your notion of problematic formaldehyde emissions from incomplete methanol "oxydation." So.... what about ethanol? Well.... seems there is some problem with ethanol too. The following link offers an overview of the pure ethanol experiment in Brazil from 1979 to the present.
http://www.economist.com/science/displayStory.cfm?story_id 13810
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Aldehydes in general, whether it's ethanol or methanol. However, because the use of alcohol as fuel has a limited record, little is known about its effects (Huw, no, it's not a conspiracy by farmers to poison us).
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Much is known about most aldehides and formaldehide in particular. It is not pleasant stuff. As to its emmission from car exhausts, that is not an area in which I have any knowledge.
Huw
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Acetaldehyde (from ethanol) is not thought to lead to hangovers; aldehydes from higher alcohols are...
:-) DAS --
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Interesting change of reaction to some facts...

Have checked under your bed or closet for some frightening gas-monster? :-D

Better than their former self, yes. But still a far cry from the best gas engines, which, by the way, also get better and better.

I'm not there...
As I said, EU Diesel has 500ppm of sulfur, just like in the US. EU tried to lower it to 350ppm, but it only happened in Germany and in the UK. Most of the biggest countries in the EU, like France and Italy, still use an even worse Diesel, with up to 2000ppm of sulfur. So much for your European superiority...

Have you checked how much of each size each one emits?

Nope. Even FAP-equipped Diesel engines emit orders of magnitude more particulates than gas engines.

You may not know, but there's benzene in Diesel too... No, there are no nutty oxygenates, so don't try to drink it...

No, it's made from methane, a by-product of the refining process, but also present in natural gas.

Ahem, that would be ethanol. I see have no clue what you're talking about...
And let's not even start with using fertile land to produce fuel additives instead of food...

Who told you the things you accepted apparently at face value? Do you really believe in demonizing the oil industry? Do you also believe that Bill Gates made a pact with the devil?

Methanol is produced by oil refineries, but then again you have no clue what methanol is, believing one can grow it... :-)

Many substances are toxic and used without any problem, like the mercury in your fillings. Just because lead was a known toxic metal, noone knew that it would end up harming humans if burned in engines.
Your assumption of bad intentions in history is amazing, yet typical of Europeans, where it seems that the latest fad is to judge the past according to what is known currently. IOW, revisiosism.

Then try to defend the truth through facts, not your assumptions about others' intentions. Stop demonizing and start argumenting.

"The most polluting"? Like there were studies of MTBE in gasoline BEFORE it was chosen? How about you refraining from reversing the time line of the facts? Oh, the humanity...

Just check your facts straight. "My" Diesel is no worse than "yours", but you have to breath more of it due to more Diesel cars... ;-)
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These are different figures to ones you used elsewhere. The actual maximum in most of the USA is 0.05% Sulphur by weight IIRC which is indeed 500ppm. Ultra low sulphur fuel, which is the ONLY road diesel available in the UK has 10ppm on average From 2005 zero sulphur diesel fuel will be available. Australia has fuel with a maximum of 50ppm
The UK and most of Western Europe is now using ultra low sulphur fuel, having used low sulphur fuel for a number of years. The USA will not have ULS fuel generally available until 2006 at the earliest
US and Canadian fuel does vary markedly in sulphur content from quite low in California to very high from some Exxon refineries in the North. Paradoxically it will be these high sulphur refineries which will be first with low sulphur fuel and updating these is now at a fairly advanced stage.
Most of the biggest countries in the EU, like France and

No one uses this level of fuel contamination in Western Europe AFAIK. It has only been available for off highway equipment for the best part of a decade in the UK.
What is it with you and facts? Are you so insecure that you have to be bigger and better at everything? It is rather childish to claim that our diesel is as dirty as yours when it is plainly not. Again I have to ask why you appear to be an apologist for your oil industry? Are you employed by them as a propagandist?

Yes indeed. The latest ones from certain manufacturers are about at the same level. Older diesels produce more particulates of a greater size. There is nothing to hide. Do you think I would deny that older generation diesels and some in current production produce more soot? I am not an apologist for anything or anyone LOL.

Not compared with latest direct injection petrol engines they don't.

Benzene in diesel is at a trace level at most. Benzene in petrol is also on the decline but is certainly still a fairly major constituent of the fuel and needs some trick vacuum nozzles to prevent it poisoning the driver filling the tank LOL.
No, there are

So methane is not toxic? Is MTBE biodegradable? No. Is it an aid to leaching? Yes. Is it confirmed as a major polluter which is being cleared up at the cost of billions? Yes.

Slight error there. Only of spelling accuracy though, not of fact.

Short of land and food in the USA are you? ROTFLOL.

Another set of fatuous and plain silly statements. Not one of the questions answered though.

It was well known decades before it was phased out. It was also known for decades that it was not needed in the fuel. It was only forced out by legislation which also phased in the catalytic converter.

Do you mean 'revisionism'? I had to point that out in view of you being such a stickler and all that LOL
Again your defence of what is known to be facts is amazing. You must be employed in a PR role, either directly or indirectly by the oil industry. Trying to discredit information is a basic tactic. Let me tell you that your attempts are pathetically amateurish.

I am doing quite well it seems. Well enough to get you to make quite absurd assertions and trying to deflect the argument at every turn.

Philip will confirm that it is *your* facts[LOL] which are not facts at all. What does that make them?
Huw
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Huw.... I accept wire transfers, VISA, and PayPal. ( :^D
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Sadly I have MasterCard. Oh well >sigh<
Huw
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What figures?

Don't cheat, it's 50ppm.

From 2005 and on, the EU mandates 50ppm. 0ppm may be available then, but it's not going to be the norm in any country.

Some vendors may alrady offer it, but it's only going to be mandated by 2006. Right now, it mandates 500ppm as in the US and in Japan, for example.

Using, maybe, considering that Diesel, the major source for PM and NOx in cities, is more of a problem in Europe than elsewhere.

Like AUS. Oh, I see, it must be those bad, bad Aussie oil-companies... :-)

Why "paradoxically"? It couldn't be more reasonable to start to curb at the where the difference will be greater. Or... could it be because it's not a technical choice, but part of the vast oil conspiracy?

Check out newsstand car magazines from such countries and read about the bitching in the lines of "we are the scum of the EU"...

When the arguments vanish, nothing like an ad hominem attack...

Not even for the huge use of Diesel in cars in Europe?

As I said, there are only a couple of FSI engines that use stratified charge. FSI works very well with stoichiometric charges...

Who said it isn't?

Diesel isn't either...

Darn, those oil conspirators managed to not kill us all before we found out about their evil works!

Your confusing methanol with ethanol demonstrates the level of your understanding of the facts...

No, short of arable land and food in Brazil, where the foolishness of using alcohol as a car fuel happened...

Pitiful...
You may not be able to read, but just because something is toxic, it doesn't mean that it's always toxic in any dosage...

Not needed??? You may not recall the abismal decline in power when it was phased out in the US in the early 70s before sophisticated engine management was economically feasible.

Yeah, I'm a stickler for reminding you that you can't tell methanol from ethanol. After all, both are kinds of alcohol, right? You should be able to either of them when making your argument about extracting it from corn or sugar cane, right?

You know only the propaganda of one side. Check out the science and you'll find out that there's no oil conspiracy, honest.

Maybe for you, but in my scale of values, debating confronting ideas is at its highest.

And yours are pathetically gullible.

You may enjoy that fantasy world of yours... Have check out if there isn't an oil executive under your bed?

OK, try to think slower, your brain is overloading and it's showing...
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While the limit is 50ppm the fuel presently available in the UK and large areas of Europe is down to 10ppm.

I can assure you that it will be the norm in the UK and many other areas including Germany.

Again the industry has taken the lead. This is in marked contrast to the USA.

Aha. So now you do concede that we use cleaner fuel.

I am sorry to bring you the news that Australia has cleaned up its act in the last 18 months. I wonder if they still mix diesel with heating oil though? LOL.

So you do not deny that those refineries are producing high sulphur fuel. Interesting. You know that it is correct that is why. You prefer to make a play of words than produce facts that contradict mine, as usual.

The EU consists of very many countries, areas of which have only recently emerged from behind the iron curtain. Some areas do indeed use fuel that is substandard by the standards of more developed regions.

Again you choose to deflect rather than answer. LOL.

Certainly not.

FSI engines. that is 'direct injection petrol' engines as opposed to the Audi nomeclature, tend to have high levels of particulate emmisions compared with other modern petrol engines used in cars. Modern diesels which meet EuroIV and V will be on a par with petrol engines. Some engines with these standards are already in use. Toyota have recently launched an EuroV compatible engine although this standard will not become compulsory until late 2005 or 2006.

You miss the point, most likely on purpose.

You ignore the point, most likely on purpose. You mentioned intellectaul integrity LOL.

No, it demonstrates a hasty couple of postings.
Rest of content free comments deleted as not worth answering.
Huw
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