Re: R.I.P. General Motors (1931-2006) .

Razz wrote, "They're probably the same people who...shop at Wal-Mart..." ******************************************* Right on. Whale-Mart is remaking our world, to the detriment of the
economy of not only the US but the world, and thanks largely to the stupid, selfish, lazy people who shop there--while all the surrounding local businesses (including factories as well) are boarded up--but they don't care or worse yet don't see a connection.
Check this out: http://www.hightowerlowdown.org/articles/apr02_v4_n4/apr02_v4_n4_lead1.cfm
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Where do you live? Everywhere I've seen that WalMart has opened a store the land values have skyrocketed and many new business have opened up all around the same area.
mike hunt

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Mike Hunter wrote:

< snip Commie crap >

In reality, prosperity is often what happens; the community's economy IMPROVES when a a Wal-Mart comes in. However, the bleeding hearts and social(ist) engineers would never report anything positive about that "evil" megacorporation's effects.
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Mike Hunter wrote: Where do you live? Everywhere I've seen that WalMart has opened a store the land values have skyrocketed and many new business have opened up all around the same area. mike hunt
Sharon wrote: < snip Commie crap > In reality, prosperity is often what happens; the community's economy IMPROVES when a a Wal-Mart comes in. However, the bleeding hearts and social(ist) engineers would never report anything positive about that "evil" megacorporation's effects. ************************************** It should be no surprise that other businesses vie for a location near a new Whale-Mart, given the fact it wil now be a high-traffic area. But what kind of businesses? A franchise Subway Sandwich shop, or a MacDonald's, maybe...but you sure as hell aren't going to see a hardware store or anything real like that going in there, nor anywhere near it--on the contrary, all that stuff for miles around will systematically go broke and close down. Wal Mart is devastating to any community it plops down into. I can remember when they first located around here, and their big boast was how everything was 'American Made'. I didn't think much about it one way or another, but of course we all know now that nothing could be further from the truth. Even if the American worker could TRIPLE his production, it wouldn't even come close to competing with someone overseas who is paid a couple of dollars a day, in horrible conditions, no less. Whale Mart shamelessly exploits that, and other companies have to do the same to compete with them. Thus Wal Mart is widely considered to be "The Driving Force behind Outsourcing." This leads to manufacturing facilities relocating abroad or simply going out of business and closing down altogether. Wal Mart, being the biggest, is the main causitive factor in this. Let's say a factory closes...many people of course are left jobless, but it's not just the labouring people, it's EVERYONE: every department head and manager, plant infrastructure professionals such as the electricians, mechanics, et. al., computer networking specialists, skilled office personnel, production foremen and workers, all the way down to the janitors and grounds keepers...all out of work now. And this happens in a communities that don't even a WalMart in it yet! It's bad enough what they do to a community where they build a store.
P.S. "Commie crap"..."social(ist)..."? LOL Doesn't most WalMart stuff come from China?
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James Goforth wrote:

And even MORE Commie crap! Wal-Mart buys it's merchandise for resale from the lowest bidder(s) that meet Wal-Mart's specs; some foreign, some US-made. Anyway, if the manufacturer or wholesaler happens to have a skin hue or eye slant that makes you uncomfortable, don't shop at Wal-Mart, and don't blame them (W-M) for NAFTA and the global economy, either; it's just the world we now live in, so suck it up and quit blaming your troubles on others. Of course, if you'd bought a few $K of Wal-Mart stock in 1970, you'd be a millionaire now, and wouldn't be attending those weekly/daily Cell meetings and continually being brainwashed by the "virtues" of Socialism.
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Sharon wrote, "And even MORE Commie crap! Wal-Mart buys it's merchandise for resale from the lowest bidder(s) that meet Wal-Mart's specs; some foreign, some US-made. Anyway, if the manufacturer or wholesaler happens to have a skin hue or eye slant that makes you uncomfortable, don't shop at Wal-Mart, and don't blame them (W-M) for NAFTA and the global economy, either; it's just the world we now live in, so suck it up and quit blaming your troubles on others. Of course, if you'd bought a few $K of Wal-Mart stock in 1970, you'd be a millionaire now, and wouldn't be attending those weekly/daily Cell meetings and continually being brainwashed by the "virtues" of Socialism." ******************************************

I've read your post several times and I still can't make heads or tails out of it. What in the hell does boycotting a monstronsity of a corporation which stomps the shit out of everything in its path have to do with Commies, Socialism, etc? On the other hand, never mind.
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You really need to do a little research or at least observe what really happens in the real world. You're just full of crap with this line. Ace Hardware for example, advises their franchises that the best thing that could happen for their business is to have a Wal Mart move in next door. As well - look again at the number of home improvement stores you see near by a Wal Mart.
As for your local hardware store of old - they're dead. Wal Mart didn't kill them off, the consumer did and the owner did. They were never a good deal in terms of price and they typically gouged the consumer pretty damned well. The big box stores that preceeded Home Depot and Lowes proved that to be true. The owner's had a corner on the market, they knew it and they took the public for all they could get - right there in the local community. Then came the original big box stores like Hechingers and Builder's Square. Quickly the public realized they could buy contractor grade tools and buildinging supplies (from junk quality to high quality) at prices a lot less than what had prevailed for decades in the "local hardware store".

And you've found some store "somewhere" that sells "American Made"? Get used to it - America doesn't manufacture anymore. Shame - but true.
As to the devastation - more pure crap. That's the typical battle cry of the uninformed. Wal Mart does contribute to the tax base - don't mouth off, go check with your local government. A little knowledge is better than a lot of bluster. They do create jobs. Not great jobs, I agree, but those people weren't working in great jobs before Wal Mart came to town. They didn't have health insurance where they were, and they have a better deal all-in-all where they are at Wal Mart than where they were before.

Oh please. Do yourself a favor and take an economics course before you embarass yourself this way publically.

Too late - you've made a complete ass of yourself.
--

-Mike-
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Mike Marlowe wrote, "You really need to do a little research or at least observe what really happens in the real world. You're just full of crap with this line. Ace Hardware for example, advises their franchises that the best thing that could happen for their business is to have a Wal Mart move in next door. As well - look again at the number of home improvement stores you see near by a Wal Mart. As for your local hardware store of old - they're dead. Wal Mart didn't kill them off, the consumer did and the owner did. They were never a good deal in terms of price and they typically gouged the consumer pretty damned well. The big box stores that preceeded Home Depot and Lowes proved that to be true. The owner's had a corner on the market, they knew it and they took the public for all they could get - right there in the local community. Then came the original big box stores like Hechingers and Builder's Square. Quickly the public realized they could buy contractor grade tools and buildinging supplies (from junk quality to high quality) at prices a lot less than what had prevailed for decades in the "local hardware store". ************************************** You actually make some pretty good points, and this is too big a subject to debate here anyway (God knows there are countless anti-WalMart sites on the net). I think we're talking apples and oranges on some aspects of it, however. Yes, the manufacturing base of this country has all but disappeared, which is, as you said, sad. I think the unbridled growth and economic power this company has amassed merits some scrutiny. It used to be that I didn't shop there, when it first appeared in my community. Now I have to.
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Thanks James. I don't usually jump into this type of thread, though I sometimes make an exception. As you say - it is indeed a very complex issue and it is foolish to see people try to reduce it to some degree of simplicity just in the name of bashing the big bad company.

I agree with that. Though there may be good reasons why the growth occurred, and though it may even represent some good for the consumer, there are hazards associated with that much size and power.
--

-Mike-
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Mike Marlowe said: "As you say - it is indeed a very complex issue and it is foolish to see people try to reduce it to some degree of simplicity just in the name of bashing the big bad company." ***************************************** I used to subscribe to this newsletter from an activist named Jim Hightower, which I found quite interesting. One issue had an story on WalMart, which I found facinating, and had no reason to doubt what it said. I wasn't a WalMart fan before that anyway, but I didn't really hate it, either...I just continued to shop at my old places, before many of them closed, thus I eventually began to dislike it quite a bit.
I included this link earlier in this thread but it's apparent (& understandable) you didn't read it, but I'd like to know what you think of it. I found it facinating. One of my concerns of WalMart somewhat parallels the old axiom, "Give me control of the world's money, and I care not who rules." IF you get a chance, I'd like to hear your thoughts on it. I think you'd find it interesting. Understandable if you don't, though, since we both agree that this could grow into more of a debate than either of us want (though I guess you could reply to me directly if you'd rather).
http://www.hightowerlowdown.org/articles/apr02_v4_n4/apr02_v4_n4_lead1.cfm
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A couple of things make me suspicious of articles and authors like this. For one - their role in life is to find all of this evil everywhere. Notice how the world is theirs to critique. Second - their claims are always vague, poorly substantiated, never directly quoted - usually ellipsed, generally more sensational than factual. They typically author some factual stuff, but only enough not to be completely laughed out of the press. In short - sometimes enough real information to cause one to take a second look - though that second look would have to be at the scrutiney of the reader since the reader cannot trust the author's intellectual integrity. Not much more real value other than that though.

You are correct - I did not see it, but I didn't follow this thread right from the beginning.

I appreciate you posting the link again, and I did read the article. I did find it more sensational than factual and in fact quite off on a number of its claims. For example - he quotes union leaders in referenced to Wal Mart's anti-union policy. What purpose does this serve? Everything the union leaders said was to be expected from them, and it lacks complete credibility given the history of unions and their claims in America.
Likewise, he mixes "facts" for the purpose of creating a sensational statement. Something like 71% of toys today are produced in China. Wal Mart markets 1 out of every 5 (20%). Yet the author chooses to juxtapose these two unrelated statistics, complete with the misdirection of mixing measures, in the hope of creating an emotion within the reader. His intent is to substantiate his prior rant about working conditions in China for which Wal Mart is not responsible, yet which he would have you believe Wal Mart is dictating.
In short, I find these types of articles to be more of an expose of the author's personal agenda than an expose of the target. This article, like others of its ilk do offer some food for thought, but not enough to warrant serious consideration. There are lots of other ways to judge an organization like Wal Mart than to rely on the rants of a man with a mission.
--

-Mike-
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Mike Marlowe wrote, "A couple of things make me suspicious of articles and authors like this. For one - their role in life is to find all of this evil everywhere. Notice how the world is theirs to critique. Second - their claims are always vague, poorly substantiated, never directly quoted - usually ellipsed, generally more sensational than factual. They typically author some factual stuff, but only enough not to be completely laughed out of the press. In short - sometimes enough real information to cause one to take a second look - though that second look would have to be at the scrutiney of the reader since the reader cannot trust the author's intellectual integrity. Not much more real value other than that though." ****************************************** The Hightower Lowdown is largely a political publication I subscribed to on a whim a few years ago, almost always about the goings-on of Capitol Hill and such, hence the obligatory "finding all this evil everywhere." He seems to be non-partisan. The WalMart article was off-topic compared to its usual content. To me it's not much different than reading the Op-Ed section of the newspaper. People have their favourite columnists and writers. That article is fairly old by now, I think it came out around 2001 or so--things may have changed by now, for better or worse. I think we can both agree that Wal-Mart probably didn't get where they are today by being nicey-nice guys.
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Well I made it to the second page before I had enough union propaganda. Every statistic he has is wrong, Full time is 40 hours just like every other company. Full and part time people are eligible for insurance after 6 months. The primary reason why many don't opt for insurance is that they are covered by other insurance (or in the case of many of the greeters are retired and have govt. insurance anyway, which is also why they want to stay part time, earnings caps). My wife works in a DC and is currently at 16.75 hr. It is about the best paying job in the area, and has better benefits than 99% of the other places. 3 weeks paid vacation, 2 weeks paid sick time, Personal time, Safety bonuses, working incentives (average 150.00 every 6 months) Full insurance, company picnics (2 a year) money donated to charitable causes you belong to ( 750.00 every 6 months to fire/ambulance if your a member)
--
Steve W.


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