When I saw "fleet buyers" I was thinking not rental car agencies but companies that lease "company cars" for corporations, service trucks, etc. Those are invariably American, as are vehicles purchased buy government agencies. The rental fleet is a little more diverse, but still predominately American.
nate
"Mike Hunter" wrote in news:Q0SdnROSP snipped-for-privacy@ptd.net:
yeah, yeah. We've heard it a bunch that you've owned a fleet business.
It *matters* who's buying the vehicles because, as is frequently reported, the fleet or rental business leaves little or NO profit in the cars the manufacturer is selling. Fleet sales can keep a factory busy or artifically boost a vehicles sales numbers, but they do little for the profitability of the company.
JP
GM should be grateful that market share is slow to change; that buyers want to believe they've done the right thing, year after year, that they need to believe they made the right decision in buying a GM car, even after they've been repeatedly bent over the hood and shown the error of their ways by the local GM dealer. However, a definite measure of GM's overall incompetence is their income statement. Toyota products are considered highly desirable and are, therefore, profitable (well, Toyota must have good manufacturing and cost-control processes, too).
*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com *** *** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account fromRental companies are not the same as corporate fleets. A vehicle to corporate fleet is just one more 'tool,' like a computer or a lathe, used in its business. Corporate vehicles generally receive the best in preventive maintenance. Vehicles for a rental company ARE their BUSINESS. Rental companies do not generally keep their vehicles, they are sold off after a year at the most. The amount of maintenance they receive in minimal at best, topping fluids primarily. There was a time not to long ago when they sold off the cars in six months. Currently they must keep them in service for a year or until the intro date for the next model year WOF ore they can loose their fleet discount number.
mike hunt
Actually I owed a business that SERVICED fleet vehicles. I guess you missed the part of the post that listed the average fleet discount offered to dealers, to sell to fleets, is only between $400 and $600 among all brands
Perhaps you might want to do a bit of research before you choose to comment on a subject of which you obviously have little or no knowledge. Manufactures can not sell directly to corporations or anybody else, that is a violation of franchise laws. Manufactures can only sell to their franchise dealers. The dealers sell the cars to fleets, generally based on bids. The guys that settler for the lower profits to get the fleet business are the dealers. ;)
mike hunt
Toyota has the advantage of using parts make mostly in low cost countries and assembling them in plants with workers that receive lower wages, fewer benefits and less desirable retirement plans and not having to pay a penny in US corporate income taxes on all of the profit it earns in the US. Yet GM still out sells Toyota more three to one
mike hunt
"Fewer benefits and less desirable retirement plans?" That's a hoot. Do you read the papers? GM's throwing a lot of their people to the wolves.
GM should be grateful that market share is slow to change; that buyers want to believe they've done the right thing, year after year, that they need to believe they made the right decision buying a GM car, even after they've been repeatedly bent over the hood and shown the error of their ways by the local GM dealer.
It's fear of the unknown that keeps them in the fold. Eventually, they decide the unknown can't be worse than what they've endured and they try something else and never return. Which is why GM's market share is falling, unit sales have fallen, revenue has fallen and income has gone negative.
incompetence
manufacturing
*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com *** *** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account fromMike Hunter wrote:
Sorry to disagree Mike. Maybe the other rental companies are different. All Hertz cars are leased from Ford, et al, for time and mileage specifications laid out in yearly agreements and are (were) 2 tiered. Here's how it worked:
Your comment about limited maintenence is totally untrue. Hertz vehicles are probably maintained BETTER than many corporate fleets.
That is true for the vehicles rental cars lease because they do not own them, but not the one they buy and own. We serviced rentals owned by GMAC or Ford Credit for rental companies. The rental car companies did not buy into our service for the ones owned, primary they were fluid topped only in their garages.. Enterprise is the only rental car company that keep all of the car they own in service for three or four years and services them well The only time we saw the ones owned by National Alamo Budget etall was for warranty work or recalls ;)
mike hunt
You are entitled to your own opinion, no matter how convoluted it may be but I suggest you look at the VIN number of most Toyotas ;)
mike hunt
"Mike Hunter" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@ptd.net:
didn't much care. Owned a fleet biz. or owned a biz that services, you're still presenting yourself as a fleet expert. Semantics at this point relative to the discussion.
not at all, I just don't believe it. Besides, regardless of the narrow definition you'll choose to use, 'fleet' includes the rental agencies, and that is specifically what I was referring to. I'd be curious to know the relative sales through "fleet" as you define it and rental agencies... ie-what percentage of "fleet" sales in total is to rental agencies. Those are the sales that keep people working with no profit margin for the manufacturer.
Perhaps you should be less beligerent and a jerk. You're here defending american auto manufacturers and their sagging market share against all logic, reason, and fact presented to you. You won't even acknowledge the other viewpoints, and you weaken your own points along the way.
Actually I'm not defending anyone but I am as expert as anybody in the business. I've worked in vehicle design for three manufactures, in top management of retail group for ten years and in fleet service for ten since I graduated from college in 1949.
You are free to believe whatever you wish. I am merely point out the facts available to anybody willing to do the search. GM still is the number one selling manufacture in the US, period. In the fast growing market in the US GM, Ford and Chrysler still sell more than ALL of the twenty or so import manufactures that offer vehicle for sale in the US, combined. Those are facts not opinion. Who chooses to buy their vehicles is immaterial. Rental fleets are simply not the same as corporate fleets in how they use and service the vehicles they own or lease and that too is a fact, whether you happen to agree or not. Call any dealership of you choose and ask for the fleet Sales Manger, or the person that sell to fleets for the dealership. Ask him what is the amount of the fleet discount, pretty simple stuff. Manufactures can not sell to anybody but dealerships and that is a fact as well Seems you are the one being a jerk because you do not like that what you believe is being challenged.
mike hunt
Yep. But they're losing ground. In both share and units sold. And they're losing money.
Fast-growing? Look at India and China. And Toyota will probably be #1 World-Wide next year.
Business-as-usual isn't going to cut it. Hmmm... I wonder how many HHRs we'll export? SSRs?
You don't even see GM cars in the Caribbean. Bah.
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Your point being? Or are you trying to prove my point?
incorrectness.
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Well, it doesn't help Toyota break into the domestic dominated fleet biz when they (according to :
With respect to all Commercial fleet sales, availability will remain very limited with longer than normal order-to-delivery timing (possibly in excess of 6 months). Commercial fleet orders will most likely need to be spread out over several order/delivery months as we manage customer demand against our established monthly production guides. It is advisable to consult with your respective TMS Fleet Field Manager and/or PD Fleet Manager specific to our ability to support a Commercial customer on Prius. (end quoted portion).
So, when the fleet owner sends out his RFB (requests for bids) no wonder Toyota doesn't even send a thank-you note back.
The density of some people posting such UTTER NONSENSE about Consumer Reports must exceed that of the inside of a black hole.
Come on people, face it, CR survey results come from responses of people who bought and own the cars they are responding about. They do not come from Consumer Reports. All they do is add up the responses. CR survey results are relied by intelligent folks in making buying choices for exactly that reason - the credibility of the guy who owns one...of lots of guys who own one, in fact.
Here's another one for you conspiracy kids who think that CR is out to get GM. I had a 2000 Yukon XL for five years and 30,000 miles. The thing was pampered. It was used as a traditional station wagon. It had lots of problems (fuel pump failure, dead power window motor, defective outside rear-view mirror (twice), cracked interior trim, rear window defroster failure, ABS sensor failure, power door lock control failure). The expensive stuff failed out of warranty and cost a total of $1400. Would have been $1800, but I replaced the rear window with an after-market instead of GM part. Yet, if you look at the CR rating for the Yukon XL it is pretty much average. I would consider it to be worse than average...and compared to our
1992 Lexus LS400 that we have had for 12 years, much, much worse than average. So as far as I'm concerned, CR went easy on the 2000 Yukon XL. Except they didn't because most folks have had less trouble than I did and that's what CR reports. The average of their responses.
Go read the interview with the guy who runs Toyota USA in the April Motor Trend and you will see why it is not at all hard to believe...and true. They really are VERY different from the domestics.
By the way, the Honda Passport is on the CR "shit list". Come to think of it, wasn't that an Isuzu, anyway?
My God you slice that baloney thick.
Toyota does NOT use parts mostly made in low cost countries. The domestic content of Toyotas is among the highest of any manufacturer. They are building more plants in this country to provide Americans with jobs. They even have plans to build an engine plant in Michigan, the heart of the beast, and will our governor has anything to say about it and if the morons from the UAW don't screw things up. The cars/parts they do import come from Japan or Canada (e.g. RX330) which are NOT low cost supplier countries. If anyone can be accused of using parts from low cost countries (other than the Koreans) it is GM and they have to do it because their labor costs are so out of wack in this country.
The VIN number indicates country of manufacture. For most Toyotas sold in the U.S. it will be the U.S. Lexi mostly come from Japan with some from Canada (virtually all RX330's).
Mike is a hard guy to deal with because there is a grain of truth in much of what he writes, but then he buries it in so much utter nonsense so no sign remains. It's the kind of nonsense that a lot of import-bashers desperately need to believe is true, so it is attractive and readily accepted by those people.
Nope, they are unquestionably subjective in terms of what they think a good car should be like. They traditionally like reliability, good mileage, good comfort, smooth ride, easy to use controls, good visibility, and so on. The kinds of things the average car buyer wants most, who is not a car enthusiast. And that is most of the car buying population.
They have traditionally not had too much to say to people who love to drive, but that has been changing. They have taken to testing performance cars...and they like what they test and say so. They like the Honda S2000, Porsche Boxter, Chevy Corvette, BMW M3, and Subaru Sti.Cars that the average car buyer would have no use for, but cars that enthusiasts hold in awe and that get high ratings in the buff books. But they deal with cars like that as a different category than mainstream cars. There is subjectivity, in other words, but it is appropriate for the audience.
If I was a person looking for a transportation appliance, as I think most people are when they car/van shop, I would pay very close attention to what CR writes and use them as a screen for what cars I will actually bother to personally look at. If they say a car/van is a dog, it will be. If they say it will be excellent, it will be. I may not like the styling or some particular feature, but I can have complete confidence that all they write about it will be true.
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