Safest car?

My impression in the UK is that hourly rates at other garages -- Ford, Renault etc -- are not lower than at Merc. Maybe the hours allocated to each job are bit less, but it's not something I have heard much about. In a bigger job a vriation in the price of parts is not necessarily very significant

Maybe US cars in the US are cheaper to maintain, i.e. Chrysler garages charge less for ajob. I suggest that most people don't do their own servicing.

DAS

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William- While it is true that MB quality has slipped in various rankings, I think they are still the best bet for the long term. I worry abot the major systems when I buy a car- engine, transmission- and I don't think that those have slipped in quality on the MB's.

Consumer magazines don't have all the answers either- when they report problems-per thousand cars, or a similar summary, it can be misleading. I don't mind having to have an electrical part replaced ten times on a car with an engine that will go 200k.... It's better than having a cylinder head rebuilt once....

AS for the safety, I've always driven MB's and SAAB's(safe and great in winter until GM). I had two major accidents in my family in the MB's (one involved a hurricane and a tree actually falling on the hood of the car and rolling over the windshield and over the car....) I Don't think that accident would have been survived in many other cars, and i actually had the car back on the road in 2 weeks...

good luck....

You really need to do some more research in this area. What is the source of this information? How is "safety defined? What are the metrics used? A common misconception, and something that auto manufacturers use to deliberately lead consumers to the wrong conclusion while still being within the law, are the results of controlled crash tests, as reported by Consumer Reports.

These crash tests measure the type and severity of impacts sustained by human-like test "robots". The results fall into three classifications: unsatisfactory, satisfactory, and good. Within the "highest rating" category, that being "good", there is still a WIDE variety of injuries that can be sustained, ranging from fractures and lacerations to absolutely no injury at all. I kid you not! That is why it is 100% accurate, and 100% legal to report that "The new Shiatzu Galaxy received the highest crash test rating, same as the BMW X5." The details that are not mentioned, is in that test the test subjects in the "Shiatzu Galaxy" were "taken to the hospital" with fractures, lacerations, and head trauma that was considered "good" in a 45 mph offset impact, while the passengers of the BMW X5 walked away with little more than bruising from the restraint devices.

Yeah, I was surprised too when I learned how data can be presented in a less than fully disclosing manner in order to let the consumer walk away with an opinion that is swayed in the favor of the message bearer.

I'm in a similar boat as you in that I keep my vehicles a long time. I had a '88 Honda Prelude that lasted a decade. It was cheap to repair, required very few fixes, and my only real complaint was that it rusted like an old can. My current car, a '97 BMW 328 cabriolet has had some failures (horn quit, steering felt a little uneven), and it costs me a lot more to maintain it than the Honda ever did, but to me, it is an immensely more gratifying car.

I did my research for a few years before getting my first BMW (which I still have, but it has been joined by two more), and during my research, I discovered there is a world of difference between vehicles that are presented as having the "same safety rating." Caveat emptor.

FYI, I'm hanging around this Mercedes NG because I am now in the research phase for my next car, and BMW does not have an offering that attracts me from a styling perspective. The MB CLK55 AMG has won my heart.

I won't tell you which decision I came to in terms of which vehicle is a "safer" vehicle, but I suggest you do the following as a start: Go to your Buick dealer and ask for their literature that details their vehicle safety. Do the same for MB. Realize that the sales rep you talk to will likely not have a clue what you're talking about because it is not part of the standard marketing paper. They may just refer you to a paragraph in a regular product-marketing pamphlet. Be persistent.

When I did this for BMW, they have me a 1/4" thick 8.5"x 11" soft cover book that detailed BMW's research, progress, and success in the area of safety. It contained hundreds of safety items and dozens of real-life crash stories complete with pictures and summary of injuries. That influenced my purchase decision.

-Steve Makohin | Reply to snipped-for-privacy@interlog.com | (hotmail acct is spam catcher)

Before you get too worried about safety remember this, from the NHTSA. (Only) "Eight percent of all vehicles sold in the US will be involved in an accident sufficient to deploy the air bags," (in their lifetime!!) I'm 77 years old, been driving since I was

14, owned over seventy automobiles and I have yet to be in an accident, other then getting scraped by another driver in a parking lot on occasion.. ;)

mike hunt

C L wrote:

Which MB vehicles are you referencing, the $30,000 4cy cars or the $75,000 cars? Surely you don't believe they are of the same quality.

Chris O'Malley wrote:

You mean pointed out as unsafe by the anti SUV's people? That's not what the US Senate investigation revealed. The death and injury rate for children has been going down dramatically over the past several years. That drop is attributed to the fact that more and more children are riding in the larger safer SUV's and getting out of the small more dangerous econoboxes. No mater how one tries to spin it, one can not defy the laws of physics. There is no question that properly belted passengers are much safer in a larger vehicle that has more area in which to build in the crumple zones required in all cars, light trucks and SUV's offered for sale in the US.

mike hunt

Door Schmetterl>

In what weather, how often and carrying "what" over what distance does your prospective car intend to operate? BIG difference between snow country and sunbelt city for one. Fwd or awd may be needed to prevent you from getting into life-threatening situations. The IIHS safety ratings included many good cars. I would contend that driving conditions and driver ability (i.e. age, health, mental accuity etc.) should be considered in the mix. No car drives itself. The ability to keep a car out of harm's way is at least as important as the impact safety of the vehicle. If you're short and can't see down the hood .. . is the car really "safe?" If the car is "overpowered," will it get you into situations that could have been avoided had you had more time to react? No perfect solutions. IIHS, reliability ratings, personal recommendations from existing owners and test drives can't hurt. Your thinking's on the right track. Avoid the obvious unsafe clunkers and drive what you enjoy .. . and you'll be happier, more relaxed and more attentive.

"Steve Makohin" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@enews.newsguy.com...

When I was Group Sales Manager for one of the US's largest megadealerships we had dealerships up and down the east coast. One location sold, MB, Toyota, Ford, Lincoln/Mercury and Honda. It occupied a several block area with separate sales facilities. One of blocks was a central service area. The same technicians worked on all the brands. The lowest shop rate was for FLM at $35 an hour, Toyota and Honda customers where charge $47 an hour, the MB customers were charge $65 an hour shop rate. That was in the late eighties and early nineties I don't know what the rate is today.

mike hunt

Dori Schmetterl>

The only car to receive a five star rating in ALL seating positions is the Lincoln Town Car, according to the NHTSA web site.

mike hunt

"Jarg>

MB quality has slipped as many have pointed out, but don't let that at all make you think they are bad cars. They are still the best engineered cars money can buy, and the safest. MB has always been a industry leader in the luxury car market, they have made almost all of the advancements in saftey that we see in cars today. Take the Princess Di incident, driver survived a head on crash with a piller at more than 100 mph. They said the rest of the passeners would have lived had they been wearing seatbelts. The E-CLASS happens to be one of MB best selling cars, here in southern Cali I seem them on the road all the time. Never owned one but I did drive one for a day as a loaner while my 500SL was in the shop for some work. I was impressed, you can't get much more for your money than that car. Find a nice one with low miles and it will give you dependable service for the next 20+ years. As for the Buick, I don't think GM has ever been known for quality or reliable anything. In my personal experience America hasn't made a car worth a shit since 1972, and it shows. In 20 years a buick will be a pile of heap while your MB will still have changed little since you first bought it. German cars are just have a quality of build that few other cars can touch. Some people will tell you that there is nothing special about them and we are fools for believing in this "German superiority" but those of us who drive MB, BMW and Porsche know that we drive the best. I'm not a snob, I don't think i'm better than anyone because I drive German, I just know from 30 years of driving these cars that they are built to last in every sense of the word. They are more expnesive, but you get what you pay for, and theres no way around that.

"William Hamilton" wrote in message news:bmsj1q$nh3$ snipped-for-privacy@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...

They'll last for 20+ years, alright, but you'll spend more than a brand new one costs to KEEP it running 20 years. THAT is the problem. Lexus ain't that way.

That statement couldn't be farther from the truth. About two years ago I traded a Lexus SC400 on a SL500. The service coasts for the SC400 were just unreal, my last was a 900 dollar breakjob ! It was a nice car, but over all I have found the Benz to be more solid, have better quality, more features and waayy more fun to drive. The copcats (japanese) make very nice cars for the first ten years, after that time period rust becomes a huge factor and the interiors start falling apart.

Yes, ALL bad!!! ;-)

How did the Roadmaster(Towncar clone) fare?

It was the OLDER generation E-class. This is important, as the newer ones are not nearly as reliable. The older E-class thanks - they were nearly indestructable.

One or two examples. Still, those specific vehicles are very good to own.

Well, that retrofitted troop carrier is pretty close to a Unimog. Huge, overbuilt, and truly indestructable. Of course, $100K+ is a mite pricey.

Buy the Buick.

You be astonished how well you can get to know your Benz dealer in 10 years, and flabbergasted at how expensive the relationship will be. The Benz has an extremely rigid body, a simply fabulous ride, and a 3-pointed star on the hood. It also comes equipped with a very long list of poor design choices and outright deficiencies that will make you crazy, from the idiotic radio that sounds like a bee in a tin can, to the "hunt, surge, lurch, and slam" transmission logic, the single wiper that looks so cool but is seemingly always in the wrong place, the badly located cruise control lever (you'll constantly and accidentally accelerate when intending only to signal a right turn), front upper suspension spring supports that corrode off in northern climates (the suspension collapses when this happens), rear door window regulators that fail with distressing regularity, a transmission shift mechanism that is exquisitely sensitive to moisture (the shift lever locks in park gear when it gets damp) and is thoughtfully located directly below the cupholder, an engine harmonic balancer that parts company with its pulley, thereby destroying the cast aluminum engine oil pan, electronic keys that are unreliable, multiplexed electronics that are essentially unrepairable by anyone but an authorized dealer, and then only after multiple attempts. The Benz requires premium fuel and synthetic motor oil ($12 per quart), too. By year 7 you can anticipate the need for a new air conditioning evaporator. That will require that the interior of the vehicle be nearly fully disassembled, and will set you back at least $2,000. The tires and brake pads will last no more than 25,000 miles, and are much more expensive than their domestic counterparts. You will need new brake rotors not later than the third set of brake pads. The exhaust is likely to rattle because the catalytic converter will begin to disassemble sometime after

50,000 miles. If you use the electric seat adjusters, the seat support mechanism will develop wear in the joints and an annoying rocking movement while driving. If you park under trees and leaves accumulate in the air intake/rain water bypass, the 1-way drain hoses will clog. Rain water will then overflow into the passenger compartment, short circuiting expensive control units hidden below the right passenger toeboard.

Many of the design choices on late-model Benz's were made to adapt cutting-edge technology, but that new technology is often unproven, and frequently installed solely for the "wow" factor, without regard to life in the real world. A single separate wire from each window switch to each window motor has worked well for decades. Now we have a single wire that attaches to all window motors and all window switches, as well as to myriad other motors and controllers. Similar to a telephone party line in the old days, each signal sharing the single wire is coded differently. A demultiplexer is installed ahead of each controlled component. If the signal is properly demultiplexed, the component operates as the driver intended. If not, call Hans. Perhaps the system needs to be reinitialized (Benz-speak for rebooted). Maybe the control unit is fried. Ether way, open your wallet. It's a door window, for Pete's sake. We need reliability, not new technology for technology's sake. The reliable systems from 1955 work just fine.

Who among us has not complained about the unreliability of Microsoft Windows? Thank you just the same, but I get the willies just imagining depending upon a computer to apply the brakes. I am not talking about the intervention of the ABS system, but the latest brake-by-wire system introduced by Benz. No connection at all between your foot and the brakes, just some circuitry. You want to entrust your safety to Bill Gates? After experiencing their Motronic brain (the computer that controls the engine and transmission) dither endlessly about which gear to choose, then end up slamming into the wrong one, you'll have faint hope that the SBC computer (controls the brakes) will be an eternally reliably servant. The late-model Benz's are chock-a-block with electronic nannies, and every one of them is busily interpreting what it thinks the driver wants, seldom correctly. The Benz has great handling, but get into a tight spot and ask for a sudden change of direction, or rapid acceleration, or encounter a slippery patch and you will wait. Wait while the nannies evaluate their choices. By the time they have chosen a plan the emergency will be over, one way or the other. Oh, and on the subject of slippery, you probably won't want to drive the Benz in winter if it snows in your area. Unless you buy an all-wheel-drive model, the lack of winter traction is scandalous.

If you are still not convinced, and find that you cannot live without the prestige of a Benz, at least do yourself the favor of avoiding a model with the COMMAND system (integrated navigation system, phone, audio, voice activation). It is a perfect nightmare of awful design, is dreadfully unreliable, is frustrating beyond measure, and is bewilderingly difficult to diagnose, let alone repair. The ultimate in electronic quicksand.

The Buick will be a lot cheaper to maintain and will almost certainly be more reliable. It will not deliver much prestige, and hardly any snob appeal. After 10 years it won't be worth much, either, but it will likely still be reliable and solid, if not stylish.

Somebody who's been there, done that ...

Or Buy a Lexus. I've had both MBs and Lexuses at the same time for several years. Both are fine cars. But since I get to compare the two cars side by side for all these years, the advantages of the Lexus become so obvious. Like right now, I have a S500 sitting in a NJ shop getting almost $9000 of work done on it. It was not entirely due to the car's quality problems as it was involved in a fender bender. But still, this fender bender is unusual. My guy drove the S500 and rear ended a Nissan Maxima. The Maxima had no damage, but the S500 had $9000 of damages in hood, front grill, side panel, lights, radiator, etc.. It's kind hard to believe the damages to the S500 while there was no damage to the Maxima. On the other hand, the people in the S500 - the driver, and two passengers, felt almost nothing except a little bump, while the driver of the Maxima was carried away by emergency crew in a strecher (as a precaution, she turned out to be okay as well). Over the years, the MBs cost quite a bundle to own, while the Lexuses hardly ever give me any trouble.

Joe in Ohio

Please consider checking the real world Injury Collision and Theft results at:

They are produced by the insurance industry based on what they actually pay out, not artificial testing methods. The primary problem with most artificial tests is that they ignore weight issues. Sure, in the fine print they say you can only compare vehicals of similar weight but putting 4 stars on minicars with sickening real world death rates (I'm talking about you EU and Japan) seems criminal to me. People without alot of money should know the truth, that statistically they would be much safer buying a quality used car than a cheap new car. Cars with better insurance profiles are also much cheaper to insure which can actually save money over the course of owning it compared to buying a cheap death trap with high insurance.

As for reliability, most major car manufactures have both good and bad models. For example, GM makes both the LeSabre, which actually rates better than an average Toyota (JD Power 2003 3 year study) in reliability and the Hummer H2, which rated dead last in quality of all consumer vehicals sold in the US last year. Any *real* car guy will tell you the same. For example, the classic 300E was solid in pretty much every way, but the C280 is infamous for costing more to fix than to buy. BMW 5 solid, Z3 junk. Lexus LS400 solid, RX300 not. I know many people and Consumers Reports disagree with this, but the numbers back it up. Another thing to consider is the same model can be made in different countries. For example, the VWs made in Germany and sold in Europe are much more reliable than the same cars made in Mexico and sold in the US. Similar story with the Camrys made in Japan vs the early ones made in the US. Also consider where you will drive with the car and what parts and service cost there. An E320 is great to drive around San Diago or Germany, but would be no fun if you needed service in say, North Dakota. I have a friend that's been waiting weeks to get parts for his 500SL in Vegas when he can still get parts for his classic Mustang at almost any autoparts store.

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