Some General Motors vehicles outrank Toyota's

Now your task will be to find a dealer that is not going to add a bunch of smoke and mirrors to the drive home price ;)

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter
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HLS, reading between the lines, I'd suggest that your comments seem a bit less than enthusiastic. (It appears to be quite a nice car.) When the average person gets excited about a car, we tend to hear superlatives, such as "amazing" or "great". You probably found out that there wasn't a lot of truth to the "claim in the latest Popular Science that the Azera is a fine car...a 'budget Lexus'." Other than having four wheels, there really isn't much to compare to the Lexus. Tastes in automotive styling are completely subjective and the Azera is quite frankly...really bland, IMHO.

Reply to
Cool Jet

I could care less about most initial quality reports. Having a couple of things fixed at the first or second service intervals under warranty is no big deal.

The problem I have had with GM vehicles is that shortly after the factory warranty is up, the expensive problems start pouring on. Leaking intake manifold gaskets, failed headlamp assemblies (seal fails and lets the inside fill with moisture), A/C failures, fuel tank leaks, etc. etc. etc. Our four year old Olds minivan is more expensive to maintain than my ten year old Volvo is, and Volvos are not generally cheap cars to maintain!

John

Reply to
John Horner

The author missed a critical factor:

""The data show the difference really is perceptual," Denove said. "Every automaker has had some quality glitches. Honda recently had transmission problems, but it got a pass because people expect Hondas to have good quality.""

He neglected to state that Honda, without a class-action lawsuit, extended the warranty on it's troublesome automatic transmissions to

100,000 miles. I know several people who have had new transmission put into their Odyssey minivans at 50-80k miles, but none of them have bad feeling about it because Honda covered the cost and gave them a loaner car for the couple of days it took.

Contrast this with GM's attitude about the epidemic of failed intake manifold gasket .... if it is after your 36,000 mile warranty is up, tough luck Mr./Ms. Customer.

John

Reply to
John Horner

You read correctly. I cannot put my finger on it, and the car has nothing that I can complain about.

Reply to
<HLS

But using Mike Hunter logic, that must mean it's still a good car. After all, that's the way a lot of us feel about new GM products (other than the obvious mistakes) and he still keeps telling us we ought to buy them because they are so great. Which is exactly the point I was trying to make by bringing up Hyundai.

For a personal vehicle, I'd still buy a Hyundai before a GM product though. And that's coming from someone who pretty much comes from an all-GM-buying family; my dad bought his '67 Cutlass new and drove the wheels off the damn thing. If I could buy a new one of those, I'd be burning rubber down to my local Olds dealer instead of typing this message.

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

I knew someone with a Acura MDX where Honda replaced the tranny for free well out of warranty (I think at ~ 60-70K miles). I've had similar experience with Chrysler as well...a repaint job for a 8-year-old Caravan with clearcoat problems (a 1987 model at the time, so that was

1995).
Reply to
jcr

Then it really depends on where you are in life and what suits your needs or your family's needs. A bland car that provides all round good service and reliability is sometimes a practical solution to ones needs. There are times to buy flash and performance and there are times to trend to the practical side. i.e. What's the best deal for the car I need at this point in my life?

Reply to
Cool Jet

Well, for me, the most pleasing car I have driven was the Passat.

Reply to
<HLS

*shudder*

I *LOVE* VW's but by all accounts the Passat is pretty much a disaster.

Have you considered a Jetta instead? They're almost as big and much more reliable.

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

That's a fact Nate! Talk about poor quality.

All indications are that Jettas are much more reliable and I find it rather odd that there can be such a difference between somewhat similar looking models.

Reply to
Cool Jet

I share the shudder... Had I not checked out the same accounts, I would have probably already bought. Passat is probably not in my immediate future. If VW wanted to, they could whip the reliability and customer relations problems in a flash and get on with business...I get the impression that they have management constipation just like GM.

Reply to
<HLS

Hey Mike,

I see you are reading this thread. great. Did you read the link in the original post that states that J.D. power found that the range of problem areas in new vehicles made by GM ranges from about 100 problems per 100 vehicles (good, even best in class) to about double that (bad)? Do you acknowledge that the nonsense you were posting about only 2% of car owners, overall, having a problem over 5 years of ownership is utter NONSENSE?

Will you please now stop posting that nonsense? Judging by some of your posts, you are not a fool and yet you sometimes post this kind of baloney like you really believe it.

Please stop it.

Thanks.

Reply to
Chuck U. Farley

Mike, you are doing it again. Cut it out! It's nonsense.

Reply to
Chuck U. Farley

Uh, Consumer Reports says that there are significant differences still. (And all they are doing is passing on what the car owners told them.)

I guess it does depend where you draw the threshold of "good dependable", though. I would like my threshold to be at 0 problems in 5 years, but that is unreasonable...for now.

Oh wait, you claim that for 98% of owners that can be the "met" threshold. I guess that with every car I have ever owned (Lexus to GMC...especially the GMC), I was in the unfortunate 2%. Bummer.

(And, yeah, I am just trying to get you to stop posting that silly statement.)

Reply to
Chuck U. Farley

Just because one chances of getting one of the good ones is far grater than getting one of the bad ones does not mean you will get one of the good ones. I had a problem with one of my Lexus. My brother in law who owners it now has had problems with it as well. The other three, as far as I know have been trouble free. If I had assumed ALL Lexus LSs had the same problem I should not have bought the next two, according to your logic. ;)

mike hunt

Reply to
Mike Hunter

Where did you get this 98% of car owners have no problems over 5 years of ownership? It is just so outside the realm of reality.

You look at the CR data and your claim and you are left with the conclusion that those poor people in the unlucky 2% are basically living at their dealerships. (OK, an exaggeration.) I don't buy it based on my own experience. Even our 92 LS400, one of the most reliable vehicles ever built, would fall in the 2% real unlucky category by your claim. Actually, none of my associates would fall in your 98% with no problems category over a broad range of car models.

It makes zero sense, what you write.

Reply to
Charles U' Farley

My guess is you believe what you do because you do not understand statistical averages. You are entitled to your own opinion however. That does not change the fact the survey after survey supports what I have stated, and that is the all manufactures vehicles far into the 2% for the rate of failure in the first five years. ;)

Reply to
Mike Hunter

Other than a ridiculously high price, what is so special about an over-priced Toyota? Toyota literally defines "boring over priced sedan." Lexus is just the nth degree of the genre. At least the Azera is cheaper.

Ed

Reply to
C. E. White

Cite one such survey. Just one. They DO NOT exist. The very idea flies in the face of common experience. I do understand how statistics work. I am an analytical chemist by profession, have University education in statistics and use statistics on a daily basis. But more important than any of that, I have owned a half-dozen new cars in my life, keep them an average of ten years and I KNOW 1st hand what you claim is low-level baloney.

Mike you make good sense off and on, but this 2% in five years thing is just devastating to your credibility. Stop it for your own sake.

Reply to
Charles U' Farley

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