The Drive-a-Toyota Act

Page 6 of 15  
Bonehenge (B A R R Y) wrote:


There was talk of making some early hybrid SUVs (I think the early Escape hybrid - perhaps before Volvo got involved) front wheel drive, with a generator/motor driving the rear wheels. This eliminates the need for the alternator, too.
A disadvantage is that you have limited AWD capability in the snow or ice conditions (great for going up driveways - bad for using AWD down the highway - of course, with computers controlling things, this is not as big a problem, unless you're going up a mountain).
All you do is add bigger batteries, and you have a plug-in hybrid and the ice/snow problem is reduced.
Jeff
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That was the original Chrysler design, reviewed in Car and Driver, for the Dodge Durango Hybrid, called "through the road" hybrid technology.
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/3558/tech-stuff-dodge-durango-hybrid.html
--
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5

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snipped-for-privacy@12.usenet.us.com wrote:

Ford, Dodge? Same thing. ;-)
Thanks.
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They do. Someone's doing that today.
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Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

Who? Just curious.
Jeff
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I've been trying to remember. I saw a mention of it in Car and Driver magazine, I believe.
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Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

This isn't 4WD, but it does 0-60 in 4 seconds, and uses Li-ion batteries: http://www.teslamotors.com/performance/specs.php
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
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Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

It's been years since I read C&D. I would swear it was the original Escape design.
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wrote:

Toyota Highlander Hybrid.
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Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

You mean like diesel locomotives? They've been AWD diesel electric for years (but without the batteries).
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
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On Jul 6, 7:22 pm, "Bonehenge (B A R R Y)"

Look into the Toyota Highlander Hybrid and the Lexus RX 400h, which offer 4WD. It's a newer version of the e-Four design that was on the Estima hybrid.
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Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

Good explanations.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
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The issue is really the efficiency *at the time the piece is being used*.
It is INCREDIBLY wasteful and noxious-smelling to run the ICE just to provide idle speed crawling and AC in downtown rush-hour traffic.
If you run the engine at its peak efficiency solely in order to charge the battery, then shut it down and let the battery crawl the car along and run the AC, you've dramatically increased the efficiency of and reduced the waste from the gasoline that went into the system.
An idling engine is very wasteful. Decouple the engine from the things that are required during "idle" time, and shut it down. Voila.
Whenever I'm downtown and end up sitting there in rush hour, I experience this very situation. I crawl through the traffic at "idle" speeds, with AC on, even on hot days, without the internal combustion engine running at all.
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"Elmo P. Shagnasty" om...

My experience is a bit different in this traffic jam crawl on a hot day scenario. The battery will run down after a while, and then the ICE comes on to provide recharge. This does indeed sap gas, and we have seen our MPG dive under this situation. Tomes
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The word "dive" needs some context. Resetting the trip meter in my Escape at the start of a crawl, the MPG indicated 99mpg for a few miles, while the engine was stopped. Then it cycled on for 30-45 seconds with no change in the indicated mpg. That cycle repeated a few times, and the MPG dropped to 65MPG over the course of 7 miles. As traffic cleared up, the mileage dropped off to 38 for a 10-12 mile stretch overall.
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Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5

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Oh yeah, one can play games with that reset button and get very odd, statistically insignificant results. It resets itself every time one refills the tank in the Prius, something that used to annoy me, but I have now become used to it.
In this case the dive went from what was about 55 MPG for half a tank down to 49 over a very slow, hot 10 miles or so. Tomes
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I do not know about the NHW10 Prius... The Classic NHW11 Prius (2001-2003 model years) will only reset the Consumption Screen odometer/MPG if you manually hit the Reset button. (I have well over 30,000 miles on my consumption screen odometer at the moment. I keep missing the "roll-over" at the 9999.9 miles mark...) The 2004-2005 NWH20 Prius will reset the Consumption Screen odometer/ MPG at each fillup (more than about 3 gallons) automatically (one full revolution of the wheel?), or if you manually hit the Reset button. The 2006-current NHW20 Prius will only reset the Consumption Screen odometer at each fillup automatically (same conditions as 2004-2005). The Consumption Screen odometer/MPG will reset if you manually hit the Reset button. (The cumulative MPG will only reset if you press the Reset button.)
(The Consumption Screen odometer/MPG may also reset if you disconnect 12v power for a long enough period of time, as well...)
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"dive". 49/55% drop. That in itself doesn't sound like a dive, and even if it were, 49mpg is still far too good to say "the mileage took a dive" to someone who is only getting 25mpg on a good day, and probably thinks of a dive as dropping to 10mpg.
10 miles weighted against "1/2 a tank". That might suggest that the mileage during that 10 mile stretch was 13mpg. That would be a dive. But my experience over a 10 mile stretch of stop and go would suggest that your example must have been far more stop than go. You might still have gotten phenomenal mileage compared to the Toyota Corolla in the lane next to you over those same ten miles.
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snipped-for-privacy@63.usenet.us.com:

Yep, I agree with all of this. 'Dive' is indeed a relative term. It was noticeable enough for all of us to really take it as a learning point in the car. Cheers, Tomes
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Well, that's what's supposed to happen.
Obviously, your MPG "dives" in that situation--but consider a standard car in that situation, where the engine is ALWAYS running, very inefficiently, solely to allow you to creep along and to drive the air conditioner.
So you can have moments of the ICE running on your hybrid, or you can have the ICE run continuously on a standard car.
The difference is, you had no feedback mechanism on your standard car to tell you what your MPG was. It was incredibly lower. Just do the math.
Had you seen what your actual MPG was in your standard car while you crawled through downtown with the AC on, you'd be furious. But you didn't see any instantaneous feedback on the instant MPG; all you saw was the average for the whole tank the next time you filled up.
Do this: turn off your MPG display for a whole tank, drive like you normally do, then turn it on right before you fill the tank the next time.
You'll be a very happy man.
Or, stare at the MPG display every moment you're in the car, and obssess over an instant number going down to 12mpg or something, and be a very unhappy man.
You can't worry about instantaneous MPG numbers. The whole purpose of the hybrid is that the engine will run as it needs to, which sometimes is very hard. Then it can not run, or barely run. Overall, efficiency is very high compared to a traditional car where the engine is always running no matter what and where the engine must handle the entire range of duties, from off the line to highway cruising, from a very small electrical load to a very large one. No ICE can be as well tuned to handle that range of duties all by itself. Decouple the ICE from the wheels, stick the motor/generators and battery pack in there, and let the software manage it all--you let each piece maximize its efficiency independent of the other pieces and independent of what the driver is asking of the whole system.
Staring at instantaneous MPG numbers while crawling through a hot downtown with the engine suddenly starting in order to charge the battery is like watching your retirement investments minute by minute. You will go crazy watching the downturns, and your euphoria during the radical upturns will be short lived as the system corrects itself.
Watch the average number over a large number of miles.
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