The Drive-a-Toyota Act

Page 8 of 15  
You know - I find it particularly and disgustingly dishonest for a person to ask me specifically why I don't give some authoritative information (in this case on NiMH battery life), and then when I do
exactly that, that same individual says I (therefore) am a know-it-all and that his part in the discussion is essentially over.
I think I just won the war on that one.
Ah - liberal tactics and dishonesty - ain't they great!?
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I'm sorry, I wasn't paying attention: what authoritative information did you give?
And what authoritative sources did you cite?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

More dishonest tactics. The jig is up.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

WTF are you talking about?
I asked you an honest question. Do you have an honest answer?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

I gave factual information on NiMH batteries germaine to the discussion. What more do you want. Same question to you as to Jeff: Care to argue the facts that I cited, or do you just want to discredit me?
Another thing - how about addressing the fact the batteries alone can't take the car even a mile and that the fuel efficiency has to come primarily from the IC engine itself.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

OK.
Dude, read what I said: I wasn't paying attention, and I asked you what authoritative information did you give? You have at least partially answered the question. You so far having fulfilled the "authoritative" part of it, though.

Can you read? I didn't see your post, so I don't know what facts you cited. Hence my question.
You are itching for an argument. You know that, don't you.

On a brand new Prius? I've had the batteries take me 2 miles on a flat (no downhill, no uphill) surfaced roadway with no ICE running. Not sure what you're talking about.

Um, on the surface that's a silly statement. The ICE is the only thing that burns fuel, so of course the fuel efficiency comes from the engine.
The fact that the engine doesn't have to be tuned to do a wide variety of tasks, the fact that the electric motors take over some of those tasks, means the engine *can* be engineered and tuned for efficiency. That is not the case on cars that don't have hybrid drivetrains. Those engines have to be overkill in order to handle a very wide range of duties.
Shoot, simply separating the air conditioner from the ICE is a big savings.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

Sorry - I didn't understand that you literally meant you didn't see the info. I posted - I thought you meant you refused to accept the info.

Again - I didn't know you meant you had not seen what I posted. Miscommunication there.

Not really. I misunderstood your meaning about not having seen the info.

Toyota's own article contradicts that. But they could have understated it to take into account a little aging of the batteries, i.e. not brand new as you stated. But still - two miles ain't much.

You are correct.

So the a.c. is all electric?
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

shoot, I was thrilled.

Yes.
The overall engineering of the Prius, once you get into it *and* live with it for a couple of months, is pretty amazing. They've taken the gross inefficiencies and managed those out of the system; driving the AC electrically is one good example.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

On the NHW20 2004-current Prius, yes, the variable-speed AC is electrically-driven. (Prius models prior to this used a conventional belt-driven off of the ICE for the AC compressor.)
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Well, you provided an assertion that batteries wear out. While that may be valid, it's pretty much useless and not terribly persuasive. Everything wears out, the question is how fast under what use. Since you claim to be an authority on the subject, perhaps you could describe to us how to estimate the life expectancy of a battery pack given a few factors like cycle time, discharge percentage, ambient temperature, etc. Maybe a word or two on various charging schemes to extend battery life?
--
B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
B.B. wrote:

The optimaization that they have done in the charge and discharge limits for battery life is smart on their part. There's really a lot more to say on that. But yes - as a circuit designer who has designed battery chargers inot commmercial equipment and who has tested batteries for miliatry applications, it is important to play whatever games you can with the charging algorithms to optimize the parameters that are important to the application - in this case - battery life.
That's one reason I never just run to WalMart to buy the cheapest battery charger for my digicams. I get them from Thomas Distributing because they have done some really good tricks to charge and condition during the charge cycle without a separate discharge/recondition cycle.
There - ther's "a word or two".
Let's see - oh - with valve-regulated lead-acid (VRLA - absorbed glass mat) batteries - you have to be careful with traditional lead acid chargers and alternators - if your charging voltage goes above a certain level (2.53 volts per cell), you drive it into a dangerous and potentially damaging hydrogen-oxygen dissociation.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

I don't see where you said you didn't see my post with the info. I gave. If that's what you were implying, sorry - I missed your point. I took you to be saying you didn't accept the facts I gave as being in the categroy of authoritative information. Looks like you and I had a genuine miscommunication there. So maybe we can back the truck up a little.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Done.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Bill Putney wrote:

Yeah, you've got that right.
You claimed that you cited authoritative sources, yet you can say what they are.
Jeff

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Jeff wrote:

In this particular case, I'm one. But - I guess I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't, as you already consider me a know-it-all. So you're not going to accept what I say even though it is true. Care to argue with the facts I stated? No - I don't suppose you would as your purpose is not to bring out the facts but to discredit.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Bill Putney wrote:

Considering that I don't think that you know what your talking about, and that you started by comparing UPS batteries to hybrid car batteries, I disagree.

Yet, you have the opportunity to provide cite references (e.g., good web pages and even research articles an authority like you should be able to find). Those I will believe.

You have stated opinions, not facts.

Actually, my purpose is two-fold:
1) To bring out the facts. 2) To discredit false information.
Sorry if you have a problem with that.
Jeff

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Jeff wrote:

Yes - I compared UPS batteries to hybrid car batteries as a general case of *rechargeable* batteries. They are different technologies - certainly. But anyone who knows anything about rechargeble batteries knows that they *ALL* have finite lives in terms of charge/discharge cycles (a statistical bell curve is involved of course). NiMH is a specific example of a general case (of rechargeable batteries). So whether you're talking about NiCad, NiMH, lead acid (flooded, gel, or glass matt), Lithium ion, or whatever, they each have a finite number of charge/discharge cycles. The fact that I originally stated (rechargeables...somewhat predictable cycels) is true and applies.
You don't think that... You disagree...
Sounds like *your* opinions. Oh - let me guess - when *you* have opinions, they are facts. Yeah - I get it.

Go ahead - Google the subject of number of charge/discharge cycles of NiMH batteries. If you find they are different than what I stated, I'd like to know. Facts is, what I stated *ARE* accepted facts.

Yes - opinions of fellow experts. Find a true expert who disagrees with the number oif charge/discharge cycles of NiMH batteries.

Only the ones you like to support your opinions, the rest of the FACTS you will label as opinions - proved right here in this thread.

You haven't shown that to be genuine, but it sounds good.

I don't when it's the case, which it isn't.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Great! Can you point to references? Web sites, books, articles?
If you can't, or if you won't...well, leave that as an exercise for the reader to determine the validity of your statements.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

Here's one that I have found to be more in depth than a lot of others - gets more into the nitty gritty of charging and discharging - this page is one of three parts: http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-11.htm
I like this one: http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-11.htm because for years, the manufacturers have been saying on their packaging (probably still do) that NiMH batteries do not have a memory effect, which I knew to be a false claim. It's appalling how many supposedly techincal and "expert" sites on battery technology have swallowed the "no memory" lie about NiMH. The chemical mechansim for the memory effect in NiMH is totally different in NiCad's, and it is certainly a much smaller phenomenon in the NiMH's, but it is a stretch to say that NiMH has no memory effect.
www.thomasdistriuting has some good technical info. on batteries and their proper charging, but as a rep. for a manufacturer, they do tend to leave out certain facts in a marketing kind of way. IIRC, they say that NiMH do not have memory effect even though they say they have to be periodically "reconditioned" (which is contradictory to claim both - if they did not have memory effect, they would not need to be reconditioned), but other than that they are a good company to deal with (great source for digicam batteries and chargers - their chargers are designed to *properly* charge and condition the batteries unlike a lot of other consumer small battery chargers).
Well constucted Google searches will come up with those and many more sources of info. on batteries - some of them even have accurate information. :)
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

http://www.thomas-distributing.com/index.htm
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Related Threads

    Motorsforum.com is a website by car enthusiasts for car enthusiasts. It is not affiliated with any of the car or spare part manufacturers or car dealers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.