Toyota aims to replace GM as the largest automaker in the world

Are you really that uninformed? GM and Ford makes over 80% of the vehicles they sell in the US, in the US, a lot more than does Toyota or Honda and they make them of more American made parts as well. GM and Ford could earn more profit if they could operate in the US as do the Japanese. That is sell their vehicles for 20 to 30 percent more, pay their employees nearly 20 percent less, offer them fewer benefits and less desirable pensions, use more than half imported parts like Toyota and Honda, some vehicles as high as 80%, and move their corporate headquarters offshore to avoid US corporate taxes, like the Japanese. LOL

mike hunt

Joseph Oberlander wrote:

Mike, you have completely misunderstood me apparently. No where did I say capitalism was bad. In fact I actually believe in and approve of it! The problem I have is with those who kneel at the altar of capitalism, sing only its praises, acknowledge none of its faults, and like to credit everything to it (eg. using this computer).

The fact is the stock market is a tool or vehicle of trade (one of many). Money (currency) of course is probably the most important and basic tool to facilitate trade for example. There are others as well. Without the stock market, without money even, trade still takes place. These tools help to enhance & improve trade, and they do so BIG TIME. I fully understand that and never disputed it. You set up a straw man for me. But anyway such tools are a RESULT of the trade of goods and services. The stock market does not create the goods and services. The labor of people and materials they work with do that. It is the labor of man and the thought bent to it that ultimately gets credit for all we have (that is not found naturally laying in front of us which is credited to God or whatever theory you hold).

I take umbrage to your slam at me that I do not understand economics. The fact is I do. I also notice that you utterly failed to address my point that most Americans get most of their money from wages and salaries (ie. they work for a living), and that loosing good paying jobs or replacing them with poor paying jobs without benefits is hurting the every day American. This is happening even with the "economy" getting good marks simply because Wall street is showing good profit. Good profits for companies on Wall street no longer automatically implies good times all around. It did to a greater extent when those companies of Wall street hired Americans to produce their goods and perform their services. That is when "trickle down" works, and has to a large extent in the past. Things are changing though. By American companies using foreign labor, it is breaking the trickle down process for Americans. Things are now trickling away or over, not down. And this trickle is just a trickle compared to the wealth that businesses used to share with their American workers.

So yeah, if you are fortunate enough to own enough stock that it can support you, without having a decent job or a job at all, then the economics of Wall street is all you need to be concerned about. (Heck, it's even cooler if you don't have to pay any tax on your dividend income! Under the right circumstances it might even mean you have to pay NO income tax.) But, if you're like most Americans who need a decent job to get through the day to day, then it hurts when your one manufacturing job was lost but replaced by "two" part time fast food type jobs etc., each of which has no benefits. As a side note to unemployment stats, remember, those who do not find work after

6 months are no longer counted among the unemployed. Also, part time jobs without benefits are still counted as a "job" when it comes to net jobs lost or gained. In my state, we have lost an average of about a million manufacturing jobs EACH year in just the last 3 to 4 years to foreign labor. Good jobs, many of which people affected have replaced with less desirable jobs or some form of government assistance.

Yes it is good that Wall street does well. Yes capitalism is a good tool to improve trade and bring benefits to many. But please, if you think all has to be wonderful because it's sunny on Wall street, then I don't think you're seeing the whole picture. Probably because you are kneeling at the altar of capitalism instead of standing up and looking around for yourself.

I suppose I didn't need to put in that last sentence, but after your Economics 101 comment, I thought I'd just leave it in.

** To email a reply, please remove everything up to and including the underscore in my email reply header.

Both GM & Ford offer a fleet buying program. You purchase fleet equiped vehicals thru dealers with a commerical sales department. Fleet cars may have some option packages not availible to the regular consumer (such as a combination of option groups).

Fleet sales include Goverment, State, & Local. As well as businesses. No matter if it's a taxi service, or a large construction company.

Fleet sales are Importaint to both GM & Ford. Which is why each has dealers that specialize in such. Often larger fleet dealers will have a seperate area of the dealership for fleet & commercial sales. Charles

I see you prefer sludge oven a leak. ;)

mike hunt

Joseph Oberlander wrote:

You weren't an auto salesman:

working with the fleet sales facilitator at the automaker. Were you?

I was, the fleet got the car below dealer cost, we got the profit through the holdback at what the dealer would normally buy the car at, if it were for a sale or lot stock.

So please don't tell me what I know or not.

Thank you!

Refinish King

That is through the EPA!

You uninformed person!

CAFE's are regulated by one branch of the government. If a contract is broken such as a franchise agreement. It would be litigated through the civil courts!

Refinish King

You shopped the wrong dealers!

Let a big city dealer try that, and I would take wagers on the longevity of the dealership.

Refinish King

That may be true today but PERCEPTIONS change and most of Toyotas gains are from false perceptions, from what we see in the fleet service business. When J D Powers rated Toyota number one in initial quality, they based it on the fact Toyota had more than one problem with every new vehicle, on average, that they sold so far in 2004. As more Toyotas get in the hands of more buyers will realize Toyotas have problems just like the vehicles of every other manufacture, even though they paid 2o to

20 percent more to buy the vehicle. Add to that the higher rates charged by Toyota dealers for service and parts and their perceptions will soon change. They ALL have problems on occasion that is why they all have a warranty. The only real difference in vehicles today is style and price, and in the end, style and price gets the sale. 'I like the looks of that car, how much is the monthly payment?' ;)

mike hunt

John Horner wrote:

You are correct I was not a salesman. I was only the Group Sales Manager for one of the largest multi-franchised dealership groups on the east cost, that sold about every brand you can think of, in six states. The Group sold hundreds of thousands of vehicles to fleets all over the eastern cost during my ten years as GSA. What would I know about fleet sales. LOL

mike hunt

Ref>

You are really funny. You are entitled to you own opinion, but not you own facts. I'll comment on this one time, in an effort to enlighten, not to debate since there is nothing to debate. The federal governments right to regulate interstate commerce, one of the few powers given to it by the states in the Constitution, is what the government used to create the EPA and the NHTSA, as well as most every area into which it has spread it power over the years.

One could not litigate any contract civilly without enabling legislation, or case law, on which to base the redress they are seeking. If there were no law there could be no illegal contract. If a franchise agreement were only between the parties, as you suggest, than the Ford Dealer Council in court could not have forced Ford Division of Ford Motor company to sell off the company owned stores they were accumulating by buying back franchises, which they did several year ago.

Hope that clears things up a bit for you.

mike hunt

Ref>

Ref>

Mike, I was just asking for clarifiaction. You gave it. Thanks. Oh yeah, don't forget the "provide for the general welfare" clause.

** To email a reply, please remove everything up to and including the underscore in my email reply header.

I think you're full of shit:

Because fleet sales aren't given to a group sales manager, who's too busy building up the morale of the troops to: "Stick the cars up the asses of everyone that comes on the lot today"

So, don't pretend to be something you're not. Six state multi franchised Mega-Dealer? I haven't seen one in about ten years, maybe you helped them go bankrupt!

Refinish King

There certainly is. It varies by state, but there are extensive laws regarding the relationship between mfg. and dealer under franchise arrangements.

John

I see refinish king prosting more valid facts, and repair proceedures then most other people in the 2 newsgroups I am active in.

Like an old guru once said "Look that dude can't read, or write, but he can lay complex circutry in his head, that a team of engeneers couldn't dream of."

Charles

Charles:

These people are pseudo intellects. They post drivel and claim it as fact. Then expect everyone to fall for it. When in fact, Chevrolet and GM dealers, Ford and Mopar dealers, have a number that the salesperson calls, which is the fleet sales facilitator.

They price the vehicle for the sales person, and the dealer gets paid on the holdback that would have been taken on the vehicle. If full price would have been paid for it. It's not breach of contract, because all dealers that were given a bid proposal have a chance to call the fleet facilitator.

The person also mentioned about buying back franchises, if her were truly informed. He would know that was a problem with: "The Black Ford Dealer Owner's Group"

Who helped finance some black people into dealers, and who went bankrupt, and Ford, rather than close the store, took over the management, until they could find a buyer for the said store.

As I said, these people are nothing but buffoons!

A six State Mega Dealer? They went out of style over ten years ago, most by bankruptcy!

Refinish King

snipped-for-privacy@mailcity.com wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@mailcity.com:

The US automakers can pay their employees 20% less with less pensions. And there'd still be thousands applying at the factories. The goddamned unions would rather there be NO jobs than take a 20% pay concession. There's plenty of us Americans, me included, who would love a good job at an auto factory. As it is, I'm competing in a tough job market for low paid shit service jobs. A lot of the competition for these jobs comes from retired UAW members and Teamsters (many are only 40-50). They got their shot to make a lot of money and retire after 20 years with a decent retirement package (before the jobs left), and now they're taking service jobs so they can supplement their pensions and buy bigger boats and hot tubs.

The earliest a UAW worker can retire is at age 50, with a minimum of thirty years service. The pension is about half of what it would be if he was 65 with the same years of service. If you are willing to work in the auto industry for lower wages and fewer benefits and a lower pension, you can do so. Go work for Toyota, just chose one of their non union plants.

mike hunt

Just>