Toyota set to surpass GM in 2007

Unfortunately, the bigger a company gets, the less they want to hear from their customers. They hire marketing research people instead.

It's too bad ! You can find the smallest "Ma&Pa" retailer on the internet, send them an eMail, ask a question about their product, and you'll get a prompt reply.

Try doing that with any of the US auto makers...... There IS a BUICK website..... but, try sending them a message.

Reply to
Anonymous
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Anyone who thinks that executives of any company keep tabs on usenet newsgroups is a bigger fool than what they are calling those executives.

Reply to
Mike Marlow

They probably do have people monitoring the NG as well as any enthusiast sites that may exist, but they probably do not participate for liability reasons (i.e. if their rep offered technical advice while just trying to be helpful GM could be on the hook for damages incurred if the OP hurt himself attempting to follow the well-intentioned advice.)

I've heard of mfgrs. monitoring NG's, fora, and even showing up at dragstrips for more nefarious purposes, like cancelling the warranties of people who raced their new vehicles, most notably one Japanese mfgr. with a performance image yet a reputation for high warranty claims and fairly terrible reliability/durability (bet you can't guess which one I'm talking about)

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

Well - that is the standard line when people try to suggest that executives should monitor usenet. But - what that fails to acknowledge is that...

1) Those executives already know what is being said in groups like this. There's nothing new and revealing in the postings and diatribes of usenet. 2) Good, bad, or otherwise, they aren't going to change things simply because of the opinions found in a newsgroup. In many cases things are just too complex for that kind of change, and in way too many cases the problems came into being because of a management mindset that just didn't care. How is a newsgroup going to change that? It's not. That change has to come from the heart of the company. 3) There is more baseless bitching and unfounded misinformation floating around the electron pool of usenet than there is valuable information. There are a lot better sources of good information and feedback.

Yeah, but the only ones you really see involved are the smaller ones. Those companies have a vested intererst in the wreck because the revenue stream from the participants is significant to them. It's more of a specialty area. Robin cares because there's probably 20 folks there who will buy from him no matter what he sells because it's a religious thing. For the bigger manufacturers and distributors, I doubt there is really as much monitoring and interest as might appear - other than if an employee happens to hang out at the wreck.

Like I said - what would they find out here that they don't already know? The bigger issue now is to get rid of the management that believes it can force its way on the consumer like AT&T used to and still get away with it. It's time for updated management thinking at the American manufacturers. It's time for a real appreciation for value and the business returns from satisfied customers. Don't need no usenet newsgroup for that.

Reply to
Mike Marlow

Actually, 80Knight's attitude has nothing to do with why GM is where they are. He's not hiding from the truth about GM, he's only saying that if you get so much joy out of Toyota news and Honda news, etc. then take it to those newsgroups. It does not affect anything to post that crap here.

So - posting a bunch of GM bashing for no other reason than to do exactly that, serves some more noble purpose?

There - it didn't take long to turn this into a personal attack simply because a fellow posted his own opinion which happened to be contrary to yours. 80Knight is right - fellows like you only post your stuff to stir up trouble.

Reply to
Mike Marlow

I respectfully disagree. There are probably not even 100 regular posters to this group. That isn't very many people to get info from. This isn't the Neilson TV ratings system. :-P

We are talking about the number 1 car manufacture in the world. That would be like Wal Mart watching there newsgroup. I just can't see them paying anyone, or even letting anyone watch them. Too much at stake.

Once again, I disagree. There are many other places to get information from. Anyone who has been using newsgroups for awhile will tell you there is (at times) more B.S. going around then there is truth.

No offence, but that is a huge difference. I am not a huge company.

Reply to
80 Knight

"80 Knight" wrote in news:BZ-dnbAGS8cvuw7YnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@giganews.com:

Well I for one was not attempting to bash GM in any way. It does burn my butt to see foreigners taking over this Country and doing it because we let them. Take a visit to a GM dealer and look how the sales people are busting tail to sell their product. Then stop by the local Toyota dealer and just watch how they are selling autos with no effort at all. In fact you have to wait in line to even talk about a deal. If GM engineers don't get off their obese rumps and design better quality autos we'll all be forced to buy foreign in the very near future. I personally would like to see GM come forth and take the lead in sales but that is not going to happen if they just continue business as usual. The writing is on the wall.

Finally, yes those same engineers I just called obese are reading this, you can bank on it. One of the more prominent rules of success is to know where you stand at all times. They read it because they know their competition reads it.

Reply to
Thagor

Your post is an excellent example of why GM doesn't read newsgroups. They already know that they are in trouble. They don't need you to tell them. Perhaps you think your reference to "obese" engineers will be helpful to them. What they want, IMO, is *verifiable* information, so maybe you could tell us all how many of their engineers are obese. Or were you just talking out your "obese" ass? This group is increasingly populated by pot stirrers and people with anti GM sentiments, whether deserved or not and NOTHING they say is verifiable. What possible value is any of it to GM. A problem without documentation, is not a problem. They have much better sources, I'm sure. Those who think that the execs and engineers at GM have nothing better to do than sit around reading NG's really need to get a grip.

Dave

Reply to
Hairy

The engineers are very capable of designing a better car. It is the budgets that get in the way. 50¢ here and a $1 there certainly add up when you build millions of cars. Add $100 to the cost of a car and you'd have much better reliability in some areas. The problem, IMO, is that the US automakers figure the cure for problems is just to buy another car. That is what GM told me to do when I had a simple seat problem.

Reply to
Edwin Pawlowski

Heh, that reminds me of an experience I had at a (notoriously poor) Dodge dealership in Pittsburgh years ago. I needed an ignition switch for my '67 Dart, which was old enough even then that it wasn't in the computerized system. The parts counter guy was rolling his eyes and audibly sighing at having to actually FLIP PAGES to order my $12 part. Finally he just busted out "why don't you just buy a new car?" I couldn't help but laugh. First of all, if I could have afforded a new car, would I have been driving an old Dart with so many dents and different color body panels? College student and new car do not generally go together. Secondly if I had bought a new car in 1996, it probably wouldn't have been a Dodge...

anyway, I eventually got my part and never went back to the dealership. Lesson learned.

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

And the results show it, I'd say.

Reply to
jcr

That is true...80 Knights attitude has nothing to do with GM's situation. Read my post though, the context was the attitude, not the person providing the example of the attitude. The reality is if a company has the attitude of telling their customers "if you don't like it leave", most will accommodate the request and leave. Few of us stay being treated that way...but some of us are hanging on for dear life!

For the record, I've never owned a vehicle made by any company other than GM, Ford or Chrysler. I've never directly owned stock in any other car company other than GM. I come from several generations of nearly exclusive GM owners on both sides of the family. There certainly is no joy to be found in the current reality.

Do you disagree that this would be the result if the attitude to the customer is "like it or leave it"?

No, just an observation of the attitude that it mirrored a real experience dealing with GM customer service in the past. Nothing personal.

Bottom line...positive change almost never happens unless things get stirred up. It's always been that way and it always well be. Companies I know do indeed keep a pulse on what the public is saying...from many sources, including newsgroups.

For what it's worth, I believe GM makes some of the best vehicles around. The charge that their product is inferior just ain't so in my book. The problem, from my anecdotal experience, is not with the product but it is how the owner is treated in resolving issues and such after the sale (compared with competitors I've also dealt with).

Reply to
jcr

Dislike?

Heck, I love my kids and trust me, they've gotten a LOT worst than this! ;-)

Reply to
jcr

Well, Mike, if they really already know about the quality issues, the loss of sales and profitability, and the dissatisfaction that is growing in their customer base, and sit on their asses and do not address it, then they should be fired. The company is doomed with this sort of management.

Reply to
<HLS

Ed, with all due respect to you, if budgets were the problem, WHY did GM continue to use the troublesome plastic plenums on the 3800 Series II for so many years?

Introducing an upgraded manifold or plenum would have cost them nothing. They transfer costs to the OEM supplier.

Reply to
<HLS

It isnt the job of executives to personally keep tabs on public opinion.

GM and other companies hire people within the corporation and external providers to provide this sort of information.

When Consumer Reports rags on GM products, whether justified or not, it counteracts millions in advertising and marketing. When you ignore your customers, you are headed for a fall.

In the company I work for (actually worked for...I resigned last Thursday), you can bet they know what the client is saying about our products and processes. We are dependent upon a much smaller client base than GM, but they are enormous spenders. We usually garner higher than average prices because we are seen as being the absolute best suppliers to the market and are presently the largest company of our kind in the world..

Reply to
<HLS

It took some period of time to find that there was indeed a flaw. Once found, I agree that something should have been done, but the cost would have to be borne by GM. After all, if GM designers specified and approved the design and material, they have the responsibility, not the manufacturer. The OEM was only making what GM asked them to do.

Today you decide to have bacon and eggs for breakfast and your local diner cook makes it for you. Great, glad you enjoyed it. Tomorrow, you decide that eggs and peanut butter would be good so you ask the cook to make it for you. You determine it sucks and won't finish it. Should you still pay? Sure he made what you asked for. Same as with plastic plenums.

The real question is why did it take so long to correct a known problem once it became known? Was it the fault of poor continuing engineering or lack of budget for an engineering review?

If the OEM was using the wrong material, the parts were out of spec, then the OEM would be responsible for correcting the problem. Until we know who specified what, the question is not properly answerable.

Reply to
Edwin Pawlowski

Because they buy in suck large quantity they had to finish off the stock of bad parts before ordering the new ones. The cost of the part is measureable to an accountant where the cost of damaged brand identity is not.

Reply to
Eugene

This answer is pretty credible...They may not take delivery in enormous quantities, but I suspect they commit to long term contracts for them...To make a change in a contract is probably not palatable to GM accountants.

And, as long as there is brand loyalty, the clients could just pay the dealerships the better part of a thousand bucks to replace the plenums which were out of warranty.

Reply to
<HLS

I whole heartedly agree. I honestly believe the management does know all of these things - how could they not? They'd have to be living in a vacuum and flat out ignoring every bit of press and every industry pundit out there not to realize what the complaints are. Not to mention that such issues as the intake gasket debacle could never have escaped their awareness. I believe that whole thing was a management decision. After all, people would never quit buying GM products, right?

What I am most interested in seeing is whether they clean house and get rid of the good old boys, and remake the company as a competitive venture. To do so is not rocket science once you get rid of all the old ways and the old guys. Companies do it every day.

Reply to
Mike Marlow

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